Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[azranger]

Jul 16, 2016 12:25:45 GMT yanmacca said:

Good morning Steve, Thompson also mentions about another ford (apparently named after him) and he saw Custer under taking a solo recon of this location, he also reprimanded a Crow for kidnapping an Indian girl and then beckoned Thompson to follow him.

I get that there is things we can not explain. At one time it was argued that Custer did not have time to deviate from his route and do what Thompson wrote. Michael Donahue should be putting a new route that Custer took toward MTC. It follows the current road drainage. There is a place along it that you ride down to the river in a short period of time. It's near the Thompson crossing area.

I don't have to accept Thompson but I can't rule out what he stated. Seems funny that after all these years of looking at Thompson's account that there is a potential new route for Custer that puts him in a reasonable location to do what Thompson alleges.

Go figure

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Jul 16, 2016 12:46:30 GMT mac said:

The time problem here is that C,I and L all have to be come back and be routed before LSH falls since there were men there from those companies.
Cheers

Which is consistent with artifacts found at battle ridge extension.

[quincannon]

Ian, the point is that specific questions must be asked of people after the fact.

That is the only way you can determine fact from opinion.

Dead horses on L-N-C. What does that tell you, in and of itself? Nothing of real value, other than horses were dead on L-N-C. Who made them dead. Under what circumstances did they die. Is it indicative of part of the battle taking place there, or just some previously wounded horses from the battle in other parts of the field being dispatched in that location.

What crossing point near Deep Ravine. Ford D is near. Ford C is nearer, but as we have discussed many times those fords are not conducive to crossing east to west, for they canalize the crosser, an untenable situation if your intention is to make an opposed crossing. So any statement based upon that, that Custer was attempting to cross there, must be looked at from that perspective.

Drawing a map after the fact, from what could only have been Private Kimm's snapshot view of the battlefield is in my mind highly suspect. Now if he had visited the field shortly afterward and taken his time reconstructing visually what he saw, it would carry more weight with me. Short of that, I would rate his information about a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10.

If we are to do this right, every bit of information must be sorted through, sifted along with other bits, before any definitive conclusion can be made. Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.

[quincannon]

Steve:

I assume you have seen the Donohue route.

1) Does it make tactical sense for that route to be used by five companies?

2) Does it make tactical sense for that route to be used by two companies, with the other three presumably nearly a mile away on L-N-C?

3) From what basis was this new route derived?

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Why would C-I-L falling first be consistent with artifacts on battle ridge extension?

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Refugees from C-I-L on LSH are consistent with C-I-L falling first, but are not conclusive as to it being fact. Unless you know the internals of the C-I-L fight the members of those companies being there because of C-I-L falling first are only speculation.

[azranger]

Jul 17, 2016 16:30:11 GMT quincannon said:

Steve:

I assume you have seen the Donohue route.Yes and rode it twice

1) Does it make tactical sense for that route to be used by five companies?
Yes It provides concealment and cover and is closer to the Big Village.


2) Does it make tactical sense for that route to be used by two companies, with the other three presumably nearly a mile away on L-N-C?

This route is only for movement to MTC. The scout who made this map did not continue.

3) From what basis was this new route derived?

A map from an Indian Scout.

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Why would C-I-L falling first be consistent with artifacts on battle ridge extension?

Cartridges found on battle ridge extension are a match to those found in Calhoun's location. The Calhoun location was military and the battle ridge extension was an Indian location. I understand there is more than one way this could occur but the facts that other explanations exist does not eliminate that Calhoun was overrun and destroyed and an Indian to a firearm from there and used it when firing from the battle ridge extension

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Refugees from C-I-L on LSH are consistent with C-I-L falling first, but are not conclusive as to it being fact. Unless you know the internals of the C-I-L fight the members of those companies being there because of C-I-L falling first are only speculation.

When I use consistent with it does not exclude other possibilities. When someone is shot with a .22 bullet there can be a finding of consistence with rather than a finding that it was fired from a sole weapon. There are so many .22 in the population that a 1:1,000,000 could mean a match to 24 firearms for example.

I think artifacts that are consistent with a theory raise the potential to a higher level of certainty. That does no mean an absolute but the odds increase as you find artifacts consistent with a theory. It would also exclude that the weapon was not fired in both locations to high degree of certainty.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

If you think the route is tactically viable, that is good enough for me.

What is the start and ending point shown on the scout's map?

If I am reading you correctly, and keep in mind I have neither route map nor have I ridden it, but I do know where the road is, how does this route square with the artifacts on L-N-C indicating some cavalry presence there?

The cartridges from the same weapon found at both locations do not conclusively prove the hypothesis. They are only a strong indicator.

You still need to know the internals of the C-I-L fight to determine who fell last. We do not have those internals, nor will we ever obtain them. The C-I-L fight very well could have been of a longer duration than we know. It is very possible that a carbine recovered there could have been used further north. It very well could have been from a Company L soldier who was cut off in some way from reaching the last stand position of Company I. The Indians that surrounded Company I and the other remnants overmatched that force, so there is nothing that would preclude an Indian picking up a carbine and moving north for more active involvement. All these things must be considered before any conclusion is reached.

Now if there were several cartridges from several different Company L weapons found on BRE then it would be more conclusive. What you have now is cartridges from the same weapon, in the hands of a person unknown, being found at two different locations about a mile apart, and that is all you have, unless you have omitted some vital detail.  In addition there is no earthly idea present on how or when the weapon in question was obtained. If you knew that the first cartridge was found among those in a known cavalry skirmish line, and the second was found in a known Indian position, it would go a long way in answering some of those questions. Do you know where the first cartridge was found?

I am only asking questions that could and should be asked by others when examining something outside the confines of convention. The answers given, and the consistency of these answers with the few things that are known will determine the viability of the theory.

[yanmacca]

Steve, what is this map? is it among the warrior maps in Donahue's book?

[yanmacca]

Chuck would say that the two key companies in the north to south axis are E and L? As these two may have been the only two who actually dismounted and placed their mounts in a designated area. The other three companies are all over the shop as if they were getting forced to dance to the Indians tune, C Company may have suffered worse in relation to pressure, as men from this company were found all over the place and in either trailing lines or groups.

[quincannon]

Here is where drawing hasty conclusions leads to the bucket of good theory developing holes in the bottom.

All five companies are up north in the vicinity of Ford D, BRE, Cemetery Ridge -- Good Theory

The remains of several soldiers from Companies C-I-L were found up north with E and F. Theory - They must have been refugees from the C-I-L final position further south. Possible Bad Conclusion. Alternate theory for their presence up north - Those soldiers could have been dismounted during the fighting up north, and were unable to leave. Possible good conclusion.

A cartridge was found up north that matches a cartridge fired down south, both determined to come from the same weapon. Theory - The cartridges found in both places from the same weapon mean that the C-I-L position fell before the E-F position. Possible Bad conclusion. Unless you know, and it cannot be known with the evidence presently available, which one of those cartridges was fired first, there is no basis for concluding that C-I-L fell before E-F.

I would think it quite likely that when C-I-L pulled out, that some of those Indians up north would be in hot pursuit.

Again, I am not arguing the point, only asking questions that should be asked to validate theory.

[quincannon]

Ian, I am not saying anything of the sort, other than I don't know. There are strong indications that Company L dismounted in good order and secured their horses in the then prescribed manner. There is less of an indicator that Company E did the same, because that suicide boys crapola stinks to high heaven. The other three companies at one time or the other could have dismounted, formed skirmish lines, remounted, and carried on to some point where they met destruction.

The JSIT narrative forces us to throw previous convention aside. What it does not do is force us to throw practiced drill and doctrine on the part of the cavalry aside. It is my considered opinion that that the cavalry portion of this battle would be fought according to the then doctrine, and the TTP prevalent at the time. I find absolutely no reason to think otherwise. At some point we know they were all scattered and destroyed piecemeal, but until that tipping point or points was reached I would expect them to do just what they were trained to do.

[yanmacca]

I have been trying to work out who those markers belong to that skirt the western perimeter, I have been told that these are C Company men, but some may be spurious. But if I can find out for definite that these men were identified as Harrington’s men, then I think that this will go a long way to proving that C Company was not left to watch over Calhoun’s right flank.

If they are C Company troopers, then I would suggest that because they were the closest to the river and thus the village, that they were subjected to heavier fire and they were killed as they rode and the direction they were heading was the one they arrived from.

[quincannon]

Could just as easily indicate that when Company C was broken on F-F Ridge some ran one way and some ran another.

As a sidebar, what would you conclude if you were to find that a Company I man was among those down there?

I don't put much stock in the certainty of any of those identifications of the lesser known people. When the Company E first shirt can only be identified by the initials sewn into his socks, then the mutilation must have been very bad.

[yanmacca]

Jul 17, 2016 18:44:32 GMT quincannon said:

The remains of several soldiers from Companies C-I-L were found up north with E and F. Theory - They must have been refugees from the C-I-L final position further south. Possible Bad Conclusion. Alternate theory for their presence up north - Those soldiers could have been dismounted during the fighting up north, and were unable to leave. Possible good conclusion.

A horse is a bigger target then a man, so what if men from C, L & I had their horses shot from under them so they ran to the closest unit, that's a long ride from BRE to Calhoun hill.

[yanmacca]

There were only ten from the other three companies found with Custer, and two of these could have been attached to the HQ, so if we stick at eight then that is not a big total from three companies under fire and certainly not for eight horses to be hit.

Pvt Ygnatz Stungewitz (C)
Pvt Willis B. Wright (C)
Pvt Edward C. Driscoll (I)
Pvt Archibald McIlhargey (I) Could have been with the HQ
Pvt John E. Mitchell (I) Could have been with the HQ
Pvt John Parker (I)
Pvt Francis T. Hughes (L)
Pvt Charles McCarthy (L)
Pvt Oscar F. Pardee (L)
Pvt Thomas S. Tweed (L)

If we look at the totals then the HQ would have about fourteen (including the two couriers) and F Company had another 38, so if you add another eight to this list then you pretty well use up most of them markers.

[quincannon]

The whole point is that there very well could be multiple reasons for those people being there, and only one points to the C-I-L position being overrun in advance of E-F.

For E-F to be the last to fall you must consider time available. If you start with all of them up north, it will take time for each of those three companies to disengage, presumably in some orderly sequence, one followed by another, then another, time to reach their final positions, time to engage on those position, with the evidence showing that Company L was the longest of those. Time to be overrun and broken (C and L). Time to get back to Company I. And finally time for the final portion of their battle.

Meanwhile during all of this time, for the E-F last theory to hold water, you must conclude that these two companies were holding out against long odds, odds that caused the other three to leave in the first place.