Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[quincannon]

Could be, and there is nothing saying that those found on F-F Ridge did not go further, and were pushed back to F-F. That is one possibility.

The one I find most likely is that some scouts went down that way, but nothing on the order of a company or two. If you needed to see down there, you only need one pair of eyes, not forty to eighty.

David has a point about something occurring at a ford, but I think it all the more likely that it was not that ford.

The Malevolent Musketeer David needs a Ford B to validate his hero. Without Ford B his hero is not the Idol of American Youth, Conquer of the Western Plains, The Buckskin Buckaroo, The Legendary Hussar of Song and Story, just another dumb ass LTC that made a huge mistake. and the Musketeer looks like a stupid shit for believing all that crap.

That should tell you something vital concerning the Malevolent Musketeer's own tactical genius. Not going to Ford B was the only correct thing Custer did all day.

[quincannon]

As a general rule, when you are in an offensive mode attacking and preparing to culminate that attack with an assault, you go in with everything you possess. You skimp on nothing. You do not dribble your forces away. The power with which you hit the enemy will cure most of the ills of that attack. The force you strike with must deliver as mighty a blow as possible. You must knock him down, and step all over him. If you allow him to get up and reconstitute, you start a downward slide. You must be ruthless of purpose and violent of execution. You must kill him where he stands, and you must keep on killing until his force has no life and no fight left. If you cannot do that, don't attack. You are wasting both time and the lives of your soldiers. One is impossible to replace, the second difficult.

[yanmacca]

Any visit to Miniconjou Ford (ford B) would have been brief and maybe only by a small detachment, as the main body was on the high ground, which by the way was about a mile back and still moving along the high ground, this I believe shows that Custer had only the slightest interest in this ford. So it was maybe only be for flank security that he bothered to send a detachment to skirt the place.

They had a habit of forming these small detachments, F Company did a similar thing as did Benteen.

I have looked at quite a few Indian accounts recently and you find just as many that say that more than two companies (and up to four) went north, you do get accounts were the grey horse troop were spotted near MTF, but you also get stories about an officer getting shot there in an attempt to cross the river, which to me seems crazy, as why would 38 men try to force an crossing to attack a village of this magnitude while the rest were over a mile away.

It seems to me that E company and MTF are the fly's in the ointment, E company seems to be everywhere and this is only because of their horse colour, MTF and MTC are fixed in our mind as the most logical places for Custer to be, but evidence shows that the column was on the high ground and the nearest evidence on any fighting is the markers for Butler and Foley.

[quincannon]

If you are traveling on L-N-C Ford B is too far away for a security detachment, and that is what the detail from Company F was.

If anyone went there it would most likely be two or three Crow scouts, maybe with Boyer, and that is a very hesitant maybe. Boyer needs to be with the column commander.

Butler and Foley are outliers, always have been, and I think it a mistake to read anything into where they were found. The presence of one body does not offer any conclusive proof that a unit was at that place or that an engagement took place at that location. In battle people's bodies get scattered all over the place and for no apparent reason. Not even worth considering in my opinion.

[mac]

Enjoying this discussion.
The archaeology at the southern end says Company L formed successive lines moving up the slope of Calhoun Hill. This suggests to me that on a return south they must be leading and the first to arrive at this location. If Company C arrived next they might move right of the L line especially if L have just reached their highest point. This might explain a quick decision by Harrington to move down towards Greasy Grass. There is a cluster of markers on a step in the FF ridge Chuck which you may remember we discussed as possibly being a position to address warriors from MTC rather than a stand in a retreat up FF ridge.
I am with David in saying lets not get too carried away but the discussion is certainly worthwhile as we now have some northern archaeology.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

According to evidence, markers and Indian accounts, only two companies formed organised defensive lines, L Company and E Company. Now there is nothing military wrong with leaving a covering force behind to fire a few rounds, this would give the others time to get ahead start. I would expect that Custer sought the high ground which lay around the Calhoun area, as his next objective, which again has some area of cover and good fields of fire.

These two companies formed the bookends which gave the column a point de depart and a rendezvous. I would expect that the HQ kept close to F Company, and that both these units were delayed because of wounded men (it would be fanciful to suggest that only Smith was wounded) and this delay was their down fall.

The line of markers along the western perimeter which has been described the route for C Company, could be for men who fell as the skirted the tree line or even men who had been pulled off their horses by the mounted warriors coming up deep ravine, but surly not men who were running from Calhoun coulee or FFR, I mean why run back to certain death?

L Company could have moved right over battle ridge to find some cover, remember that book snippet I posted a few weeks ago, were the formed an L shaped defence, the account said that they moved over the ridge and were all killed.

[mac]

Not quite with you Ian but I was just thinking that the question has always been why would Harrington make a sweep into Calhoun Coulee and then dismount if he was just forcing back infiltration up the coulee. If in fact he was trying to form a skirmish line to the right of L then that would explain a dismount and a string of men from company C along the ridge line.
Obviously I do not know enough about how such a retreat from the north might be managed. I will say that although even I can see that Calhoun is poor defensive ground it is better than LSH just by virtue of being closer to the rest of the command.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Hi Mac, well why would he bother with this ford, I know it looked like the logical crossing point but he never took enough of his battalion to make a serious attempt at crossing.

Now let’s just look back on what the other pro-Ford B people claim;

Keogh watched from over a mile away while Custer approached in two units ( E and HQ-F), HQ and F took up positions on a ridge of high ground whilst E Company went to the flats, and once they took fire they all moved back up hill and met Keogh on Calhoun hill.

Keogh had no radio, so just how did he know to move to Calhoun hill? Some say that C and F walked up to Calhoun hill.
This just all sounds crazy to me, as this was a time for action and not dithering, I mean just how long would this aborted operation take.

Now one of the things that certain officers found was prints made by cavalry horses, and these led up to the high ground, now would thirst rider less horses simply head to the river?

[yanmacca]

Mac, all I am doing regarding C Company, is following the line of markers and placing them to the route taken by soldiers on the JSIT map, just look at that map again and see how a line goes right along the western perimeter and makes a turn back up hill, the map says that this turn was made in front of some high ground, which looks to me like greasy grass hill.

Whether or not these C Company men were acting under orders and still moved in order or were riding in panic mode due to losses, I don’t know, and that is why I keep placing the JSIT map over known locations, and surprisingly enough they are accurate.

[azranger]

Martin states he was 600 yards from Ford B when he was sent back. Both Martin and Thompson observe fighting in MTC.

[mac]

If there is no order and a panic Ian, my problem is why is Keogh tucked up in low ground in a mass. It would make more sense to me if he was following L and C and was acting as a link to the progress of E and F as they come south. Then Crazy Horse splits him from E and F by moving through the gap and they are trapped in that low ground.
Cheers

[mac]

Hi AZ.
I am not too confident with what either of those gentlemen say in this regard.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

They may have lost their commander (Keogh) as they made their way back and decided to take him to some area of cover.

[yanmacca]

Good morning Steve, Thompson also mentions about another ford (apparently named after him) and he saw Custer under taking a solo recon of this location, he also reprimanded a Crow for kidnapping an Indian girl and then beckoned Thompson to follow him.

[mac]

The time problem here is that C,I and L all have to be come back and be routed before LSH falls since there were men there from those companies.
Cheers