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Post by yanmacca on Jun 4, 2016 16:20:00 GMT
Here is that description Chuck, and it mentions the captain and communications sergeant as being tank commanders, but also gives the captain as a passenger in the jeep, which can confused people, its a good job I know that tank companies have only one captain plus you information to place them in the lead tank, another thing that I found strange about this TO&E was the M3 and M5 light tank had a crew of four, the lead tank would have a crew of five if they squeezed the captain in as that image also has a sergeant as the lead tank commander.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 4, 2016 18:31:02 GMT
This is my rifle, this is my gun. One is for work, the other for fun.
This is my tank, this is my quarter ton. One is for work, the other for fun.
The comms sergeant is a place holder for the company XO.
The light and medium tank companies were nearly identical in internal organization.
You will find a two tank section in the battalion headquarters as well. They have full crews assigned by MTOE, BUT, when the Old Man as the S-3 go to war, those are THEIR vehicles, and they command them.
Chances are your charts and stuff are UK in origin, and as we have discussed before, there are many well meaning U S Army enthusiasts in the UK such as George Forty, and that other numbnuts whose name nearly escapes me, and I wish it would, Philip Katcher, who do not know B from a bull's ass about how the U S Army is organized, think they do, put out a lot of bad stuff, and it sticks, like crap on a barn door.
You want your site to be good, and accurate. Hold everything these two clowns say at arms length, until it is verified by at least ten US sources.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 4, 2016 18:51:18 GMT
So what you are saying is that the Captain and 1st Lieutenant both command the tanks in the HQ section, but the staff sergeant and communication sergeant keep their seats warm when the unit is in the rear area's.
One last question, so would the staff sergeant and communication sergeant take up position in the jeep along with the Liaison corporal and bugler driver?
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Post by quincannon on Jun 4, 2016 20:09:06 GMT
Yes, that is what I am saying.
I guess if they had a mind to, or needed to go somewhere, BUT normally, the dispossessed sergeant, would say to the gunner get your ass out of my seat, I am gunning this tank. Then the gunner would say to the loader, get your ass out of my seat I am loading this gun and so forth, until some poor SOB did not get a chance to die for his country that particular day.
In a US tank company normally the highest ranking guy who is not in the companies combat echelon is the First Sergeant. He is the guy who handles all of the administrative, maintenance, and logistics people, when the unit is forward. All those people in the logistics and maintenance sections are normally found in the battalion combat, or combat command field trains. They go forward when necessary to feed, fuel, repair or recover. They normally control the attached (from battalion) medical team, complete with front line ambulance, as well.
You cannot begin to get a feel for how a US combat company, of any type operates, by looking at a chart. It gives you a very false impression, and that is one of the reasons that I constantly pooh-pooh people like Forty and Katcher. They look at charts, think they know, and have not one earthly clue.
The combat echelon of a WWII tank company equipped with the M-4 or M-26 tank is 17 tanks, one of those funny looking little tank howitzers (at least for the M-4 equipped companies), and 90 brave souls to crew them, including five commissioned officers. That is what the book says. Reality says that if they have ten they are lucky, eight or nine being the norm in extended periods of combat.
ALSO - Please Remember. Rank among Lieutenants is akin to virginity in a house of ill repute - Not often found. There is no First Lieutenant (the position) in a tank company, although there may be as many as five (by rank), or as few as NONE.
It was not uncommon in WWII for Second Lieutenants to command companies, that may have contained one or more First Lieutenants (with less combat experience). Having a Captain command a company in combat is a luxury not often found as well. Most companies would consider themselves very fortunate to be commanded by a First Lieutenant (that had lived long enough and gained the required experience), with their three tank platoons each commanded by a sergeant or staff sergeant, no XO, and having a guy filling the First Sergeant's position higher in rank than a Corporal.
WE tend to build into our organizations the maximum degree of flexibility, and instill in our people, down to the lowest rank the idea of - See that company commander, he may be you tomorrow, prepare yourself.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 5, 2016 11:49:54 GMT
Chuck when I decided to add a section containing company sized military formations to every country, I knew I would have to nail it, so I tried to research actually military documents rather than take some authors word for it. I was lucky when I research both the American and German records because there is a wealth of information out there which came from the war department and Heer, in the case of the US army it came in the form of T/O&E files (which means tables of organisation and equipment) and the German army as K.stN files (Kriegsstärkenachweisungen) which are similar to the US army files, now these are spot on but you need to really work on them to find how they work, for example here is the T/O&E for a US tank reconnaissance troop (mechanised) circa 1943; linkAnd here is a similar German formation from their own documents; linkNow understanding this is all well and good but it doesn’t tell you the stuff what Chuck has just told me, which in a way makes them accurate but sterile documents, but I have to work with what data I have and these tables are the best out there, so there is no need to trust people like George Forty (bless him as I have three of his books which were bought for me as presents). So that is why I pester old Chuck so much, because I trust him and take his word, and he is free. Yan
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Post by quincannon on Jun 5, 2016 12:25:27 GMT
If it gives you any comfort Ian I don't care a hill of beans for those instructional books, normally about an inch and a half thick that Benning (Blue cover) and Knox (Yellow cover)put out with the charts for each MTOE that show the silhouette of the vehicles within the TO&E and under them all of the people that were supposed to ride in them. I am sure Colt remembers the ones I am talking about. They were used at the schools for instructional purposes, were always years behind time, and except for the indoctrination of newly minted Second Lieutenants generally useless.
They all give the impression of ALWAYS, when in practice it is NEARLY NEVER.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 5, 2016 12:30:24 GMT
Trouble is old friend, is that they are all I have got to work from, as I call them parade ground books, because they can never foresee just how a unit will cope when they suffer casualties and loss of equipment. Got to go, its Jacobs birthday tomorrow (he is 11) so we are all going out to eat this afternoon so that all the family can come along, and he is picking the restaurant, so I insists that he buys the first round of drinks seeing he is getting stacks of cash in all of his cards (only joking of course as he is too young to buy alcohol, so he can pick up the tab instead )
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Post by quincannon on Jun 5, 2016 17:18:17 GMT
Please wish my good friend Jacob a most happy birthday for me.
I guess D Day will forever more be know to us a J Day.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 5, 2016 18:03:13 GMT
I will pass on your kind regards Chuck, if he see’s me on this site, he always asks am I conversing with you.
Well he did pick the restaurant and he picked the most expensive joint in town, "Frankie and Bennie's", apparently he loves the spaghetti Bolognese and garlic ciabatta, I went for a cheese burger at the pricey sum of $19.23c
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Post by quincannon on Jun 5, 2016 21:08:02 GMT
He went for the WHAT. Tell that little puppy that he is supposed to still be at the Big Mac and Fries Happy Meal stage in the course of his preadolescent development. Next thing you know he will be asking for Russian dressing with Caviar on his frigging Wheaties.
I despair in how you are seeing to this lad's development Ian. As a grandparent you have certain responsibilities to keep him on the straight and narrow pathway, and as far away from loose women and garlic as possible.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 6, 2016 0:25:13 GMT
He went for the WHAT. Tell that little puppy that he is supposed to still be at the Big Mac and Fries Happy Meal stage in the course of his preadolescent development. Next thing you know he will be asking for Russian dressing with Caviar on his frigging Wheaties. I despair in how you are seeing to this lad's development Ian. As a grandparent you have certain responsibilities to keep him on the straight and narrow pathway, and as far away from loose women and garlic as possible. Why deny him loose women? Oops.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 6, 2016 0:49:34 GMT
If you don't meet them how can you determine they be loose? Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jun 6, 2016 2:20:46 GMT
Look you guys I just received five pictures of my granddaughter labeled pre prom preparations. I am still in a state of shock, and when I recover I may have some views that I will share, about how little girls become women overnight. Until then I think I will go into a coma for about a century or so, and hope this all turns out well, because if I see her with a date in the next batch of pictures, I may very well become a catatonic mess, and have Russian dressing with Caviar on my Wheaties. Have I become coherent yet?
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Post by admin3 on Jun 6, 2016 7:22:33 GMT
I am sorry to intercede, but I was doing my rounds and came across this thread, now can we please stop all this talk about fancy foods and other palava, and stick proper food like fish and chips and roast dinners.
BTW; I am sure that the amount of steroids we pump into our live stock, is the main cause of kids being so big these days, as to me the sight of six foot fourteen year old's is quite disturbing.
Anyway got to go and finish my rounds, so carry on with your posts and keep on the straight and narrow.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 6, 2016 13:04:45 GMT
Look you guys I just received five pictures of my granddaughter labeled pre prom preparations. I am still in a state of shock, and when I recover I may have some views that I will share, about how little girls become women overnight. Until then I think I will go into a coma for about a century or so, and hope this all turns out well, because if I see her with a date in the next batch of pictures, I may very well become a catatonic mess, and have Russian dressing with Caviar on my Wheaties. Have I become coherent yet? Please say it ain't so but I know better. My 25 year old stepdaughter is getting married this coming Sunday and we recently took "before and after" pix of my 4 year old grandaughter at The Butterfly Pavilion in Westminster CO. The before we had from when she was 1 toddling around, the newer set at 4, some in the same locations as 3 years ago. Where does the time go, QC?
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