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Post by quincannon on Jun 7, 2016 11:21:19 GMT
Which goes to inadequate crew training, BUT also a much deeper problem with the society itself. There was a lack of mechanical devices in the Soviet Union to whit, the automobile was not the mode of transportation that it was in the west, therefore no exposure to such things made the designated mechanic someone that was few and far between.
Most of Europe at the time had some degree of this. Not so in the US where the mass production automobile was in widespread use, and back in that day nearly every male over the age of sixteen had some shade tree experience, and was able to apply a fix to the simple problems found in the armored vehicle. In addition every crew was trained to change a track, and perform preventive maintenance, and that in itself cuts down on a lot of mobility problems. Today it is a horse of a different color with on board electronic systems and such.
Colt can give us what he expected of his tankers, much better that I can stumble fart over it.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jun 7, 2016 12:03:33 GMT
I have the AR-15, AR-10, and a Ruger Scout rifle as working tools. I agree with Colt 45 in regards to the 7.62. The Scout rifle is good for our cover officer during decoy operations. In the PACE planning for a decoy operations it would fall into the emergency category and things have gone bad.
Issued weapons are the AR-15, Remington 870 shotgun, and SIG 226 in .40.
I learned a new term a while back from one of our younger Marines. I was talking about our precision riflemen and training needed for those assigned to cover officer. About a year later he asked me about the overwatch program was coming along. That sounded like something my superiors do. Instead he meant the cover officer. I like that.
In Arizona law enforcement we went from sniper to precision rifleman, to cover officer, and now overwatch.
The Department is converting from SIG 226 to SIG 320 and I will be attending the armorer course for the 320.
It's great to be retired but still actively engaged as a reserve.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jun 7, 2016 13:47:17 GMT
In my day, tank crews did almost all the maintenance on their vehicle. They could replace the entire track, replace a road wheel, idler wheel, maintain the hydraulics in the turret, and when it came time to pull the power pack, they unfastened everything. Then the guy with the M88 came along and hoisted the engine out of the vehicle. The crew even occasionally assisted battalion maintenance with the overhaul. And, of course, they put the engine back in and re-attached everything. All this would occur when in garrison, and would even occur when out in the field to the level they were capable of. As a platoon leader, I became quite familiar with the workings of my particular steed and on more than one occasion got dirtier than my crew pulling maintenance on the old iron car. Each platoon had a conex shed in the motor pool where you could find all kinds of "spare" parts (not necessarily authorized by TO&E), tools, both authorized and home-made, and other contrivances meant to make the job of caring for the vehicle easier.
This was not unlike the cavalry trooper who was expected to care for his horse before himself. As descendants of the cavalry, we did the same thing. Upon return from the field, the first thing done was the cleaning of the tank, followed by initial inspection for maintenance while it was refueled and readied for deployment, should the balloon go up. If there was any daylight left (return to garrison) maintenance began immediately. When in garrison, if not involved in some kind of garrison-level training, the work schedule revolved around continued maintenance and crew training on the vehicle.
Of course there were specialists at battalion maintenance who handled anything that was beyond the level of the crew's ability to deal with. These would be things electronic mostly, or areas that required special tools or training. Battalion maintenance went to the field with the line companies and were always available since we broke a number of vehicles every time we went out.
Again, this had changed very little from the cavalry days. They took farriers with them, along with saddlers, etc., to assist the troopers in caring for the horses, but the main responsibility for caring for the mount fell to the trooper.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 7, 2016 14:06:32 GMT
I remember the movie "Sahara" with Bogart, they did a re-make of it not long ago and in the movie you actually saw how the crew of an M3 medium tank had to toil with the vehicle and keep it running.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 7, 2016 14:25:02 GMT
I was just reading the thread on D-Day, and after the mention yesterday about the T-34 v Panther, made me check again on the number of tank available for the main German strike force in the Normandy area and this was the 21st panzer.
This formation was the only one capable of throwing the allies into the sea and it contained at the core of its strength 107 medium battle tanks, now none of these were Panthers and the whole lot was made up of panzer Mk IVs. To make things worse 21 of these were old models which mounted the short 75mm L/24 gun, which was totally inadequate against allied tanks, the rest were made up of versions mounting the longer 75mm L/43 or L/48 which was more potent.
But again these vehicles were worn out and had been passed on to the 21st Pz from other formations. Because the 21st Pz was recently refitted in France it was built using captured French vehicles, so this formation was bottom of the pecking order for new vehicles, but was expected to push the allies into the sea, in fact some panzer units from this division actually managed to launch a counter attack but badly mauled by British anti-tank guns.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 7, 2016 15:19:23 GMT
Colt: You had a Conex full of parts that were not formally in the PLL. I am shocked, shocked to the core.
Your rendition mirrors what was the standard in an Infantry battalion all be it with much less complicated vehicles. Driver preventive maintenance, motor stables, and the training of drivers kept that stuff on the road, and we did not much care how it got done, ONLY that it got done, and the equipment was available when it was needed. Same can be said for a talented company armorer, and the innovative radio man, who often went a step or two beyond where they were authorized to go.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jun 7, 2016 18:57:41 GMT
Chuck, Inspection times by brigade or division folks always caused a ruckus, because you had to clear the conex and the tank of any unauthorized parts, tools, playmate foldouts, etc. My platoon's cars (mine especially) always got filled up with this stuff, and then replaced after the inspection. You simply could not keep your vehicle running on the pure TO&E list of stuff, and you sure as hell could not depend on supply to have what you needed when you needed.
When I was the HQ company XO, and in charge of the supply room among other things, these inspection times had me keeping a couple of deuce and a halfs loaded with "stuff" and driving around the fort until the inspection was over. You can imagine I was quite popular with the all the platoon leaders and their NCO's as the supply officer since I made it possible for them to keep their stashes and not get busted on an inspection tour by the top brass. This wasn't strictly by the manual, but it was how you got the job done and kept a tank battalion functioning.
I'm sure you never saw anything like this happen in the infantry. Only us armor guys pulled stunts like that.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 7, 2016 19:53:16 GMT
No such things never happened like that in the King's Children. Unheard of us to do such things, and lower ourselves to the status of Armored Rifraff.
For those that do not know and wish in on this conversation, so that they can be assured that Colt and I have not completely lost our minds.
PLL= Is a list of spare parts that are authorized for stocking at battalion level. It is the most mortal of mortal sins in the eyes of the logistician to have parts above the set level or heaven forbid parts not on the list itself. This is a three Hail Mary, two Our Father, one Act of(sincere)Contrition, Sack Cloth and Ashes begging for forgiveness outside the Cathedral, help an old lady across the street type penance offense. It may be sinful, but like the founding principle of Bordellos world wide - necessity.
One word of caution: The requirement for the above, and therefore Colt's honest and frank admission of his many misdeeds is not found in the Cavalry Mindedness Course at Queen's Staff College (nor are Bordellos - but that is another issue entirely), so if you matriculated at that esteemed institution and think you missed this little dose of Armor reality, you did not, because the faculty does not have a clue what we are talking about either.
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