Change in Dynamics?

[deadwoodgultch]

If Reno had continued his charge into the village immediately, with roughly 140 officers and men, augmented by roughly 26 scouts, been able to cause enough shock to scatter the village?

If this had happened, with no delay, Custer would have seen Reno's command enmeshed in the village, by the time he reached the heights. What impact would this have had on GAC, going forward? 

If the NA's had not scattered, but regrouped.

Would Reno's command been able to reload there weapon rapidly enough to carry the day?

Would Reno have been around to have a drink later that night or to be later be drummed out of the Army for misconduct?

Would there be a poem written about "Into the Village of Death rode the 170"? 

Would Benteen have crossed the river to die or followed Custer to his death?

Where would the pack train end up?

Who would be the goat of the battle, if not Reno or Benteen?

If Custer survived how soon would he get that Star he so badly wanted?

Would GAC have been buried at West Point with honors?

Just curious, I am sure scholars brighter than I will set me straight on these burning questions. Thank you in advance for any and all assistance.

Regards,

Tom 

[quincannon]

Knowing already that the serious bones in your body are few and far between Tom, I respectfully decline.

[deadwoodgultch]

Fan boy!

[yanmacca]

To be honest Tom I think that Reno was lucky to have made it that far down the valley never mind reaching the village. I suppose that Custer looking down from either LNC ridges or Calhoun hill, would have been delighted to have seen Reno’s men causing hell in the village below as this would have been a part of his plan.

Apparently the camp circles all formed crescent shapes which opened facing south, so each one of these would sucking in and trapping his men like a bagatelle machine does to a ball, so it would have been one hell of a mess.

Well if Benteen followed the valley rout then I don’t think he would have allowed his battalion to be sucked into this mess especially since he had the pack train to look after.

Yan.

[Beth]

I think we have to look at the first line.

"If Reno had continued his charge into the village immediately, with roughly 140 officers and men, augmented by roughly 26 scouts, been able to cause enough shock to scatter the village?"

I think the fatal flaw was the assumption that the village would scatter. I tend now to believe they never planned to scatter. They provided a distraction so women, children and the elders could move to safety but the rest of the warriors are preparing for battle--and had even mentally prepared for an upcoming battle if the reports of the ceremony for the suicide boys was held the night before was true. They knew once the soldiers came everything that was important to them about their life was going to be gone and perhaps as warriors they were going to die in battle than live in a reservation.

This is pure alternate history but suppose there was a rough plan inparticular with Hunkapapas societies since they were the village at the end, we'll keep the solders busy while the women get away and everyone gets ready and rallies the other tribes then we will let them through--make them think we are running away something along the line of what happened to Fetterman. Unfortunately the soldiers got spooked and ran into the timber and no matter how hard we tried we can poke them out then suddenly the solders totally panic and go running out of the timber like crazy men and up the hill.

[mac]

Apr 15, 2016 14:04:51 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

If Reno had continued his charge into the village immediately, with roughly 140 officers and men, augmented by roughly 26 scouts, been able to cause enough shock to scatter the village?

If this had happened, with no delay, Custer would have seen Reno's command enmeshed in the village, by the time he reached the heights. What impact would this have had on GAC, going forward? 

If the NA's had not scattered, but regrouped.

Would Reno's command been able to reload there weapon rapidly enough to carry the day?

Would Reno have been around to have a drink later that night or to be later be drummed out of the Army for misconduct?

Would there be a poem written about "Into the Village of Death rode the 170"? 

Would Benteen have crossed the river to die or followed Custer to his death?

Where would the pack train end up?

Who would be the goat of the battle, if not Reno or Benteen?

If Custer survived how soon would he get that Star he so badly wanted?

Would GAC have been buried at West Point with honors?

Just curious, I am sure scholars brighter than I will set me straight on these burning questions. Thank you in advance for any and all assistance.

Regards,

Tom 

Into the village of death rode the one senty
The Indians were waiting and there were plenty
Reno was leading his men with his flask
You had to be hammered to take on this task
Now Tom is the one who planned this assault
When they all get slaughtered it will be his fault.
With apologies to all poets and the poetry discipline in general (one star and above)

[yanmacca]

And I thought Chuck was our only "street corner Shakespeare" but 10 out of 10 for effort Mac.

[azranger]

There is another thought. Did the Indians think they could destroy Reno before Custer could give him support?

I don't see a screening of the village effort by flanking and moving to the rear of Reno. I think if surrounded and fixed along with Crazy Horse charging through the timber it may have been a short fight. I know that is what Sgt Ryan believed.

I think sending a separate small unit of the 7th cavalry encouraged the offense of the Indians. I think the action taken against Reno would have been nearly impossible if Custer's 5 companies had followed Reno and charged around Reno's left flank.

I think the gap both in location and timing between Reno and Custer lead to movement of the Indians to Reno's rear.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[yanmacca]

Hi Steve, I would guess that the Indians reacted to what came at them from down the valley and any thought of additional troops coming from another direction would be low on their priorities, that is why battle chiefs like Crazy Horse and his band (probably being their best mobile unit) were there to do battle, even though Reno was already under pressure from over 500 Indians, CH and his braves still hit their straps to get into the fight, so really some of the best warriors were congregated against the soldiers in the valley, so they paid no attention to any additional attacks by more solders.

Yan.

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac,

That was dynOmite! Pardon the spelling.

Regards,
Tom

[azranger]

Apr 16, 2016 11:54:18 GMT yanmacca said:

Hi Steve, I would guess that the Indians reacted to what came at them from down the valley and any thought of additional troops coming from another direction would be low on their priorities, that is why battle chiefs like Crazy Horse and his band (probably being their best mobile unit) were there to do battle, even though Reno was already under pressure from over 500 Indians, CH and his braves still hit their straps to get into the fight, so really some of the best warriors were congregated against the soldiers in the valley, so they paid no attention to any additional attacks by more solders.

Yan.

I think that if they knew Custer went to the bluffs that they were not concerned. They knew how long it would take to get to Ford B and that he would face a greeting party anywhere he would attempt to cross.

Steve

[quincannon]

I think it is well to realize that the mission of an advanced guard (and that is what Reno thought he was and testified to) is to develop the situation. Reno did just that.

What may not be well understood is that the others guys are busy doing the same thing, developing the situation. That is what I referred to in the other thread. The first arrivals from the camp threw up a screen, seeing that Reno was limited in numbers that screen morphed into a guard as their numbers grew. Once they had collected sufficient combat power, it went from screen to guard to counterattack, all within the confines of half an hour or less. They were able to develop the situation then exploit it.

I agree with Steve. The Indians had little fear of anyone on the bluffs. They understood the time distance factors and further understood they could react far faster than Custer could act.

It is by the grace of God, Marcus Reno's decision making, and Fred Benteen's stubbornness that the 7th Cavalry survived until evening.

[benteen]

Apr 15, 2016 18:41:57 GMT Beth said:

I think we have to look at the first line.

"If Reno had continued his charge into the village immediately, with roughly 140 officers and men, augmented by roughly 26 scouts, been able to cause enough shock to scatter the village?"

Beth,

I think if Reno continued his charge, it would have been Fetterman part 2. They had just defeated a force 10 times the size of Renos (Crook) they were not about to scatter against this puny force. Just my opinion.

Be Well
Dan

[quincannon]

The possibility of continuance must be present, before any talk of continuance commences.

The possibility of continuance was not there, so any speculation is not premature, but moot.

Tactical maneuver is the art of the possible.

[benteen]

Beth,

I have a book " 1876 Facts about Custer and the LBH" by Jerry L. Russell, and from time to time I post one on the Alliance board. I ran across this that may have interest to you as to your question of what would have happened if Reno continued his charge to the village.

" If Reno had charged through the village (Instead of halting his charge). Custer would have joined him in a very short time, and Benteen later and we might have had an expensive victory ( Lt Edgerly, Co D)

I dont agree with him, I think it would have been suicide, but I felt it only fair to give another viewpoint even if it differs from my own.

Be Well
Dan