Indian Tactics

[Deleted]

Mar 18, 2016 16:28:31 GMT yanmacca said:

It depends really on timings and bad luck, if Keogh was help out Calhoun by engaging with Indians coming from the west and south of battle ridge then he would first have to ditch his horses, and were better than the swale area, but as they arrive and are assembling prior to moving on foot to occupy a new position, but this is interrupted by warriors streaming up from deep coulee and over battle ridge via Calhoun coulee, that would mean that Keogh arrived at a bad time as the situation was at its worse and was unlucky enough to be caught making preparations to leave his horses with their respected holders and move forward on foot.

Just another theory, but we can only speculate and throw things into the mix and hopefully throw out the ones that we think are too far-fetched (probably like my last one).

Hi Yan,

Keogh's marker is roughly 400 - 500 metres from the Calhoun skirmish line.  To clarify, in this scenario is Keogh leaving his horses where his command perished, or closer to Calhoun Hill with Co. I getting caught horseless and running on foot to where they were found?

Cheers,

conrad

[yanmacca]

Hi Conrad and how are you sir.

Yes I in my Whiff (which over here means "stink") I have Keogh ditching his horses in this depression (swale) and fighting on foot further on the ridge line, Calhoun had done a similar thing with his horses and placed them in an area called "Horse holders ravine" this is a sound military tactic because it keeps the cavalry mans best friend out of harms way.

[quincannon]

The only logical answer to Keogh being where he was is that he was occupied by someone, and needed to be there, rather than the position being one of choice.

Bravery alone does not cut it. Tactical competence cuts it. If we look at Keogh in the conventional manner, being well out of position (by his own hand alone), not responding to the early on skirmishing (gunfire) by repositioning, or sitting back on his duff while two companies allegedly under his control were fully engaged, then he was incompetent.

If on the other hand he was with his own company fully engaged with someone, while those other two companies were also fighting, then and only then can you cut him some slack.

We must assume I think that if what we suspect is true, the existence of a Keogh battalion, then the commander of that battalion will be where he thinks he is most needed and can best direct the ongoing action. It is an assumption, and that assumption does not mean he was correct, only that he thought he was correct in the circumstances presented.

Tom: I am speaking of his activities while still on active duty, not his civilian job. He was a married man, and he was engaged in adultery which is a criminal act under UCMJ. He was always known as a very bright pretty boy in the Army, by his associates and classmates (several of whom I know)and did not hesitate to step on people for his own selfish ends. The rules are there to be obeyed for everyone, not just the regular folks. Just like with Custer, when you start the think that the rules apply to everyone but you, that you are special and above them, then you as an officer are not fit to shovel shit.

[Deleted]

Mar 18, 2016 23:41:52 GMT dave said:

I would love to have the opportunity to show you around Shiloh, Vicksburg, Franklin, Chickamauga, Gettysburg and then on to Deadwood's home turf Virginia. If you make it over here you have a place to stay and we will load up the old car and hit the road.
Regards
Dave

Thanks Dave!

In a few years I think I'll have a big holiday coming due so I'll keep that in mind!  I did get to see most of the eastern battlefields as a teen, but haven't been to any of the Western Theater sites apart from Perryville and Wilson's Creek.  I'd especially like to see Vicksburg, having read Shelby Foote's The Beleaguered City a number of times.  As a Mississippian, I'm sure you're familiar with it

Cheers,

conrad

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2016 12:51:23 GMT azranger said:

The Kellogg marker was placed on private property but it was in road right of way for the older entrance road. The Kellogg marker bothers me on why would he have been there without others. Not impossible but suspect. The marker fits in a location found on Benteen's map if I recall correctly and on the map it has several other causalities.

I always assumed since he was riding a mule he was slower or the beast got stubborn and left him straggling the rest of the command.  Of course that's just an assumption and you would be the authority here.

It's interesting that none of the Native American accounts mentions that there was one person riding a mule.  You think that would make Kellogg stand out in participants memories a bit more than the average trooper.

Cheers,

conrad

[yanmacca]

Conrad/Brian from Ian/Yan;

I recall broaching the subject of Kellogg's mount about four years ago and a friend of mine said that he was ridig a horse and not a mule.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2016 13:39:14 GMT yanmacca said:

Hi Conrad and how are you sir.

Yes I in my Whiff (which over here means "stink") I have Keogh ditching his horses in this depression (swale) and fighting on foot further on the ridge line, Calhoun had done a similar thing with his horses and placed them in an area called "Horse holders ravine" this is a sound military tactic because it keeps the cavalry mans best friend out of harms way.

Thanks Yan,

I was curious if you had the horses stashed in Horse Holders Ravine or another 100 - 200 metres further back in the vicinity of the Keogh markers.  For some reason I had in my head that you meant Keogh was going to ditch his horses half a kilometre away and move his command all the way to Calhoun Hill on foot (a long way from the spare ammo!) but I see now that you expect him to be on Battle Ridge in the direction of, but not on, Calhoun Hill.

Cheers,

conrad

[Deleted]

Yan,

That's strange, I've always heard of him riding a mule, no exceptions. Fred has him on one, what was the rationale for Kellogg being on a horse instead?

Cheers,

conrad

[quincannon]

Conrad: Like you the western fields are strangers to me, with the exception of Vicksburg and Chickamauga. I enjoyed Vicksburg. It is well developed as a park. I really enjoyed Chickamauga in that it is as near raw as the 21st Century will allow. Part of its preservation I think is that the present park was used up until WWII as the training area for Fort Oglethorpe, located adjacent.

I would love to show all of you around the training areas at Fort A. P. Hill, near Tom's house and directly adjacent to the home of culinary delight Gerber's New Yorker, famed in song and story by four generations of soldiers with chronic indigestion.

A. P Hill was the winter camp of Jackson's Corps in 62-63, and scene of the famous snowball skirmish that winter. After a century and a half the trenches are still well delineated, if you don't mind a tree or two smack in the middle of your fire step. Many of the old roads are still there, not paved, and while widened a bit in the relative same state they were in the day. Very interesting place for the ACW student. As far as I can determine Jackson's headquarters that winter was in one of the out buildings of property once owned (next to A. P. Hill) by Major General Jack Castles (Former TAG VA), although I have never verified that. 

[yanmacca]

Conrad I have tried to find that post, but to no avail. I have an idea who told me that he was on a mule, but I can see now that they may have changed their perspective.

[quincannon]

I think Kellogg was on a mule, but mule or horse, it is obvious that the poor animal was not fast enough.

I am more concerned though with the removal or moving of the markers. Technically they are not graves, for graves are protected by law in every State I know of, but it would seem the markers would be protected by some regulatory body, somewhere along the line. Unless they were moved by a private land owner who did not give a damn, there must be some record of the movement somewhere. In that instance case could be made for destruction of government property regardless if that property was on private land or not.

It's important because it can possible change the conventional wisdom of how this action unfolded down in the gravel pit-Ford D- Highway 212/I90 junction area, and we don't know near enough about that as it stands today. For instance markers where the trading post now stands means that there was a whole and vital part of the scheme of maneuver, we know squat about.

[dave]

Conrad
Vicksburg is a beautiful park and has the restored USS Cairo and a museum full of artifacts that were raised with her from the Yazoo river. Vicksburg also has the only African-American Monument on a battlefield and it was erected by the state of Mississippi at a cost of $ 300,000. Since you have been to Wilson's Creek we will have to add Pea Ridge to our agenda.

QC you are more than welcome to come on down to Mississippi and stay here and we will be sure to go to Shiloh as it is the best preserved or least affected battle field from the War. You will be in hog heaven walking around and seeing everything from an ground pounder point of view. We will take Conrad on a epicurean tour of Southern Comfort Food. Probably the very same you grew up with in Virginia. Ribs, BBQ, fried chicken, collards, field peas, fried catfish, pork chops pecan pie, banana pudding and other delicacies.

Why don't we just get a group and tour these beautiful parks? Beth has kin buried near Shiloh and she would love to come on down and visit also. Y'all just come on and we will have a ball.
Regards
Dave

[quincannon]

You will pardon me Dave, I am presently having a heart attack brought on by cholesterol by proxy. I am just not coming if there is no peach brandy to wash down the pecan pie. So there buster. Get the menu squared away.

[Beth]

Mar 20, 2016 0:32:56 GMT dave said:

Conrad
Vicksburg is a beautiful park and has the restored USS Cairo and a museum full of artifacts that were raised with her from the Yazoo river. Vicksburg also has the only African-American Monument on a battlefield and it was erected by the state of Mississippi at a cost of $ 300,000. Since you have been to Wilson's Creek we will have to add Pea Ridge to our agenda.

QC you are more than welcome to come on down to Mississippi and stay here and we will be sure to go to Shiloh as it is the best preserved or least affected battle field from the War. You will be in hog heaven walking around and seeing everything from an ground pounder point of view. We will take Conrad on a epicurean tour of Southern Comfort Food. Probably the very same you grew up with in Virginia. Ribs, BBQ, fried chicken, collards, field peas, fried catfish, pork chops pecan pie, banana pudding and other delicacies.

Why don't we just get a group and tour these beautiful parks? Beth has kin buried near Shiloh and she would love to come on down and visit also. Y'all just come on and we will have a ball.
Regards
Dave

True about the kin buried at/near Shiloh but as Dave knows somewhere is name and body got separated when he was moved.  Still I would really love that trip.  I'd leave hubby at home though and perhaps bring my brother who ironically after decades of studying the Indian Wars has moved to American Civil War. 

[dave]

Peach Brandy or Peach Schnapps we will need to get the fine wine connoisseur from Virginia, ole Deadwood himself to come along. He probably has a few vintage bottles of Muscadine wine that he could share with us.

Beth bring Bubba along and we will have a high ole time.
Regards
Dave