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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 16, 2016 20:35:37 GMT
Dave, The stupidity you allude to above was on display in more than 20 of Rocky Marciano's fights. The little guy Marciano 185 lbs. for a heavy weight, would duck down in a cover up crouch, the big guy would reach down with what he thought was a haymaking fight ender. What to their wondering eyes should appear, the little guy uncoiling and delivering a devastating uppercut to the big guy's chin. Fight over, same tactic, same result. Scout thy opponent, learn and be willing to adapt.
Regards, Tom
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 16, 2016 20:51:20 GMT
Rocky Marciano fought in the late teens and 1920's when you were a boy, right? Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 16, 2016 21:00:11 GMT
Dave: I shutter to think of the misinformation put out on ever so many a high school history term paper, and papers submitted at higher institutions as well, after obtaining "facts" on the Liars and Lunatics board. The additional imprimatur of the LBHA adds credence to the garbage that pipsqueak military pretending dwarf purveys. I think that is why he burns AZ so much is that he has the cover of what otherwise is a reputable organization.
My buddy Jack and I were discussing Clausewitz and Sunny with another fairly recent member of our retired military geezers club, Miles, who plans to run for Congress next cycle, just this past Sunday. Jack is a dyed in the wool Clausewitz man, while I am, as you know, a Sunny fan boy. One thing Jack mentioned is that the key to understanding Sunny is, that in knowing tactics and terrain will win you half of your battles, knowing the enemy will give you another 25 percent, but it is in knowing yourself that you complete the picture, and the result is having little to fear. Throw Sunny's book away and concentrate on that and you will be well served in any sort of battle.
Captain Pretend professes to know tactics and terrain. He does not but thinks he does. He thinks he knows his enemies, and I am not talking feathered fellows here. Where he really fails is not knowing himself, for he does not wish to either see or admit the character rot that exists in that putrid hunk of worthless flesh that is himself.
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mac
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Post by mac on Mar 16, 2016 21:12:32 GMT
From what I know, I admire Marciano.
I feel that the move of Company C into the coulee was not a move into the gully that is etched into the bottom of the coulee but rather a charge down to near its perimeter. Also I am thinking that for such a move to be made there was probably not, at that time, significant fire from Greasy Grass. Such a charge seems to me the only way to put C in such a disastrous condition. Thoughts? Gotta go Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 16, 2016 21:16:28 GMT
Rocky Marciano fought in the late teens and 1920's when you were a boy, right? Regards Dave That's true Dave he did win the crown when you were only 3 and retired undefeated when you were 7! I am sure your dad remembered the bare knuckle era, my dad was foggy on it.
Regards, Tom
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 17, 2016 2:18:02 GMT
Deadwood You drive the would be Irish Dragoon nuts. Your insightful comments delivered with wicked humor leaves him gasping and grasping with no retort other than cancelling your PM privileges. I hope you continue to share your pearls of wisdom with the members of that board. Regards Dave
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 11:12:35 GMT
From what I know, I admire Marciano. I feel that the move of Company C into the coulee was not a move into the gully that is etched into the bottom of the coulee but rather a charge down to near its perimeter. Also I am thinking that for such a move to be made there was probably not, at that time, significant fire from Greasy Grass. Such a charge seems to me the only way to put C in such a disastrous condition. Thoughts? Gotta go Cheers I agree Mac. As I've said before I don't think that final gully of Calhoun Coulee was the target for C Company's charge, the purpose was to clear the upper coulee and direct fire against Greasy Grass from a reverse-slope position. The final gully directly in front of GG is also the area that I think Wooden Leg told Marquis that the warriors retreated to. That said, I think there may have been a fairly steady and significant fire from Greasy Grass, otherwise the charge only needed to clear the upper coulee and then withdrawal back to Calhoun Hill. Cheers, conrad
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 13:06:55 GMT
I fully agree with Beth here, Custer fought as if he were fighting Confederates as opposed to the Indian Confederation. He maneuvered as if he were a division commander. There is nothing wrong with the way Custer maneuvered were he that division commander. Nothing at all. Look at the map, Reno's brigade to the south cutting off the escape route to the Big Horns, Keogh's brigade in the center, guarding Custer's center and cutting off the east escape route, McDougal's brigade forming an operational reserve and securing the logistics, and Yates' brigade ready to strike the hostiles that were being forced into a premature retreat. I agree QC, which is why I've said before that I think Custer saw the running village as a chance to wrap everything up the same as Grant and Sheridan had done at Appomattox. You've got Reno / Union infantry pushing a fleeing but still dangerous mass forward, Keogh's troops discouraging a move in a safer direction (south in Lee's case, east here) by taking up a blocking position like the Union held for days at Jetersville, and then the end-run to set up a blocking force, just like Custer and his cavalry had done at Appomattox itself. Custer must have thought he had seen this situation before and knew what to do. Not to mention, forcing the Sioux and Cheyenne to surrender all at once would have been his chance for a big win and redemption. Cheers, conrad
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 17, 2016 15:30:44 GMT
Such a charge seems to me the only way to put C in such a disastrous condition. Ah but was it a charge Mac, or were they fleeing from either cemetery hill or being chased by Indians coming from deep ravine? They could have been heading back south and were deflected onto FFR, then dislodged and chased up to Calhoun hill. To be honest I would need concrete proof that when the Indian accounts say that the soldiers charged down from the high ground, that they actually meant battle ridge and not the high ground facing ford D. Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 17, 2016 17:07:36 GMT
One damned hill looks just like another. Good point Ian.
Don't know if either one of you are correct, but I can see more of a charge off of Cemetery Hill/Ridge than I can down the narrow corridor that is Calhoun Coulee.
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mac
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Post by mac on Mar 18, 2016 10:58:20 GMT
Ian I just don't have the feeling that the Ford D topography fits but I didn't spend much time looking there so I am happy to be corrected. The flight from the north by Company C also worries me as they got that far along the ridge past the drainages going down to the river with no casualties. Conrad may well be correct with respect to fire from Greasy Grass. Another thought is that fire from Greasy Grass in response to their charge caused at least one casualty that made them dismount. In Strategy of Defeat Fred quotes archaeology indicating a Company C movement of about 450 metres from the ridge.
In respect of Company I Their position felt to me like they were not moving when hit. Again just a feeling but I felt they were not at all ready for the attack and were quickly collapsed and destroyed. I see infiltration around Calhoun Hill putting a force of warriors west of Keogh completely undetected. Then a movement through the gap coupled with the overflow from the collapse of Company L and C creating a perfect storm through the Keogh position. This would be consistent with the tactical approach I outlined for the warriors. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 18, 2016 13:33:27 GMT
Hello Mac, as you know there are a line of markers that flow from near deep ravine to FFR, they are few in number but look distinct enough on a map to suggest some kind of move either north or south. So let’s say that C Company was on battle ridge and charged down to sweep the low ground, they then got deflected onto FFR by warrior numbers located in Calhoun coulee, now that is very plausible and a lot of people with more experienced then I have suggested such a move.
Now if you look on a map and see where Calhoun Coulee is situated and look how the markers spread north right across this feature, then why would these men ride through this drainage, which would be a death, to try and find sanctuary further north, it looks like the majority fled south and stood their ground for a bit on FFR, they then broke again and ran uphill to Calhoun.
That is why I am steering towards a north to south move by C Company with a sharp turn east, rather than an east to west then south and finally east again move.
It’s just my take on it.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 18, 2016 13:45:13 GMT
I think that Company I, was in the swale because they wanted to be in that location and I agree with you that they were not moving, now this could mean two things and the first was that they were stationed there after Custer and Yates left, this could be for a number or reasons, but the bottom line is that they were initially not expected to deploy, but were standing to, and biding their time.
Now I think this area was reach when they first rode over from the LNC ridge line, so it was recognised as a depression which offered some cover from a couple of directions, now what if Keogh was retreating that way from the north and reached this area knowing that it was the only place around which he could halt and maybe defend, now I know that I am clutching at straws here, and a few people would make hay with my theory, but just looking at the way Keogh’s Company were caught just begs belief.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 18, 2016 15:35:39 GMT
This is healthy folks.
The most likely scenario is the one put forth by Mac and Conrad. It is so most likely that it is the one widely accepted. Widely accepted though does not mean truth beyond all doubt.
I think a case could be made that uses the JSIT narrative for the initial moves, four companies going forward with Custer, L being left behind. From that point Custer is being gradually confronted by what he sees as Indian infiltration across the river from Cemetery Hill, and not knowing of the strength that confronts Calhoun left behind. He sends Company C across the flats to deal with that (what he thinks are) small pesky group in the GGR area, feeling their intention is to work into Company L's flank. Company C gets caught in a buzz saw. A little later he sends Company I back over Battle Ridge to support L and C. Remember Custer cannot see down where C is. Company L arrives in the swale just in time to police up what is left of both C and L, but he is fully confronted with those chasing them and has no opportunity to break contact. He has ridden into what fast becomes a horseshoe surrounding him.
I do not believe anyone would occupy that swale are for defense, so there must be another reason.
It is too far back from C or L to support them, or act as a reserve.
It is unlikely they were driven there, for even a drowning man first seeks a lifeboat, and the swale offers none.
It is unlikely that Company I would stay in the swale upon hearing the volume of fire that must have been coming from Companies L and C.
We already established that the swale provides line of sight for Benteen's most logical approach route, but that possible mission does not lock them to that ground as the situation changes, and it is obvious that the situation did change.
So whatever reason they were there tells me that they were there covering something or skirmishing with someone, OR they came there later and got caught there, per my own ramblings above.
Please keep in mind that I generally follow the widely accepted, but I also take every opportunity to test it.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 18, 2016 16:28:31 GMT
It depends really on timings and bad luck, if Keogh was help out Calhoun by engaging with Indians coming from the west and south of battle ridge then he would first have to ditch his horses, and were better than the swale area, but as they arrive and are assembling prior to moving on foot to occupy a new position, but this is interrupted by warriors streaming up from deep coulee and over battle ridge via Calhoun coulee, that would mean that Keogh arrived at a bad time as the situation was at its worse and was unlucky enough to be caught making preparations to leave his horses with their respected holders and move forward on foot.
Just another theory, but we can only speculate and throw things into the mix and hopefully throw out the ones that we think are too far-fetched (probably like my last one).
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