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Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 17:29:56 GMT
I'll have to check the timing but I don't believe they came out immediately. There was a screening action that threw up a lot of dust and alerted the village buying time for the warriors to secure their ponies before they advanced.
Imminent would be within an hour or so. If warriors are sleeping, pony herd grazing unsecured, kids out fishing, others hunting, and a misplaced belief that an attack would come in the early hours, then I would think the village was caught napping. Although caught napping they rallied pretty promptly and took advantage of the 7th's indecisive actions.
I really wonder if they were literally sleeping--it was midday and there are people out and about doing things. I suspect it might have been like anyone spends a lazy sort of hot summer day--just not putting much effort into things. The "Caught napping" statement might not mean literally sleeping but just unaware.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 6, 2016 17:32:04 GMT
If that is what you think Matt, then maybe you are the ready customer for that moon green cheese, bridge in Brooklyn and the menu.
You go right ahead and check that timing and you will discover the elapsed time from Reno crossing at Ford A until he was up on those bluffs do not vary a whole lot from what Wagner and others have presented in print.
Any sleeping village caught with their pants down that could do what they did, and within that time frame is near impossible. You ought know better.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 6, 2016 18:49:37 GMT
Matt,
They did see them coming, between the Lone Tepee along Reno Creek and where Reno Crossed the Little Bighorn, maybe slightly before. What the NA's would have seen before Gerard pointed them out to Custer would have been both the Reno and Custer columns. Were those NA's on the lookout, your guess is as good as mine, was Wolf Tooth on the lookout, again who knows, but it gives one pause.
Worth considering.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jul 6, 2016 19:54:07 GMT
Looks like about an hour to me 1:16 to 2:08
Looks like about 45 minutes to me 1:35 to 2:08 They did dismount for a reason. The Indians were already in front of them, more than they could handle. That means according to Wagner, all those sleepy headed, pants around their knees, turnip picking swimmers sleeping off a drunk massed on Reno's front in 19 minutes.
Crazy Horse was there as Reno was departing. Two hours would have put him there after 3:00 PM
When you get to that battlefield you tell me all about it. Until then either refresh yourself as to the terrain on the map and the distances involved, or learn to tell time.
Christ, I hope I meet you in battle one day. You will think when I leave my front door open, I must be carelessly picking turnips. Are you in for a surprise.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 6, 2016 20:37:46 GMT
Matt,
Wolf Tooth was at the other end of the battlefield, nearer to the Park entrance and Chuck's favorite burger joint, he began harassing Keogh and others of Custer's column as soon as they arrived in the northern environs. He would not have encountered Reno.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jul 6, 2016 20:45:21 GMT
Tom: In fairness Matt has never been to this field and has not a clue as to the vast distances that are involved.
I put Wolf Tooth a little closer to the Calhoun are, but I agree he was having death burgers for lunch, maybe carry out, stopping along the roadside of 212, before he ever went south.
Those Indians that were running as Gerard said have always been a mystery as to their identity to me, but I think it highly possible they were a returning patrol. Is anyone sure that they even saw Custer's column? I mean saw it, not just trail dust.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 6, 2016 20:55:28 GMT
Chuck,
I can not answer your last question, my guess though, is they saw the leading elements of those two columns. At the bare minimum the scouts, that were, at that point not thrown out very far.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 6, 2016 21:12:18 GMT
There is a mention that Custer men saw Indians as far back as sharpshooter ridge and that's why he split right, I would hazard a guess that if this was correct that these could have been the Wolftooth band.
Check out either Martini or Kanipe as I am sure it came from one of them two.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 6, 2016 22:37:31 GMT
Well Ian that makes all the difference. Two paragons of truth, justice, and the American way.
From the point where Custer split right, how far is it to Sharpshooter Ridge? Map I am looking at puts it about 3 Kilometers, give or take. Rolling terrain, distance, puts that in some doubt.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 1:11:30 GMT
Well there was a ravine, which is being very generous, more a gully, a dry river course, that happened to be full of Indians that were shooting at Reno's battalion. That is documented fact, or are facts immaterial to your narrative.
Now why don't we stop this fiction of you being a combat vet.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 2:39:16 GMT
Are you saying to me that the ravine in question was not full of Indians. That none were there in that place, and that he stopped because of an empty hole in the ground. If that is what you are saying then it directly contradicts all those who gave testimony on the event.
The facts are there were enough Indians on his front to stop him, that were shortly, within minutes, joined by hundreds more coming from both north and west and he was quickly surrounded and cut off. That is a considerable achievement on the part of the Indians, and were you who you say you are, you would realize that.
Of course you are not who you say you are, and if you think I am going to forget the fraud you attempt to commit on this body think again. Guys like you are always the same. You all fail to polish the back side of your belt buckles, and if you know what to look for, and I and others here do, it shows.
I don't care if you are honest with us, although that would be nice, but you are not even honest with yourself. That is a flaw of character I do not understand. Is your life so pitiful that you have to build a persona around you to give yourself some sense of bona fides in the eyes of others. Why don't you just try being who you are?
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 7, 2016 9:16:00 GMT
Reno knew they were coming for him as early reports were that the Indians were coming back up the valley, and that is probably why he sent a detail to secure the timber, now I know it was sound tactics to flush out this wooded flank, but do you think he still would have done this is if his front was clear and he was still advancing? Don't forget his right flank was mostly tree lined from the word go.
I suppose some Reno’s officers said things like “if we had gone any further we would still be there now” because they faced an empty gully, duh!
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 7, 2016 10:58:16 GMT
While I saw Charlie Reynolds grave this year, I have yet to see the dry stream bed, other than on maps and Google. Steve has been there and while there is no surety that it has not gotten wider or deeper in 140 years, Steve says it could not be jumped. So even if had not been filled with warriors shooting at Reno, he would have to either have to have avoided it or slowed to a walk to cross it. In either event it would have slowed the attack to a crawl or have diverted it to some degree.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 7, 2016 13:19:35 GMT
Matt
You are wrong. I don't see how you can read what Chuck wrote and still believe the village was asleep.
One of the things we heard on the 2016 field trip is that the village knew Custer was coming and was ordered to stay within the village in preparation. Wolf Tooth disobeyed and left on his own. (Weir type). Others left and they joined up on Custer Creek which is across highway 212 near the trading post.
Apparently Wolf Tooth was called back when the soldiers were observed in Reno Creek.
I had not put together what Chuck said about the security on the fords but it makes sense and indicates a preparation.
I have made observations in the past that when the Indians moved to Reno's flank and to his rear this had to be aplanned attack. They left the village to other forces for security of the families. The usual expectation would be that they formed a screen between the troopers and their families.
This is huge difference and I think Sgt Ryan states it French. Reno observed what was going on and based upon the totality of the situation decided to break out and rejoin the regiment.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 7, 2016 13:25:59 GMT
If that is what you think Matt, then maybe you are the ready customer for that moon green chess, the bridge in Brooklyn and the menu. You go right ahead and check that timing and you will discover the elapsed time from Reno crossing at Ford A until he was up on those bluffs do not vary a whole lot from what Wagner and others have presented in print. Any sleeping village caught with their pants down that could do what they did, and within that time frame is near impossible. You ought know better. So I checked Wagner's timing. As I suggested it was 30 plus minutes before the warriors began to come out in force.
1.16 pm Reno crosses Ford A 1.35 pm Dismount ordered 1.46 M flankers reach village 2.08 Reno begins to withdraw to the timber
Had the village been on high alert, they would have seen Custer/Reno approaching. They would have seen fording by Reno. The alarm wasn't sounding until Reno was on top off them. Crazy horse and his boys didn't get their face paint on for another hour. The village, in my opinion, was not expecting an attack on the 25th. They rallied well but they were caught with their pants down as you say. Had Custer gone in as one, he would most definitely have caught them napping. His splitting and indecisive actions allowed the Indians to regroup and get out to face him.
They began coming out when Reno crossed. Gerard wanted to let Custer know at that time. He relayed it to Cooke and Keogh according Gerard.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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