azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824 
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Post by azranger on Jul 7, 2016 13:34:50 GMT
If that is what you think Matt, then maybe you are the ready customer for that moon green chess, the bridge in Brooklyn and the menu. You go right ahead and check that timing and you will discover the elapsed time from Reno crossing at Ford A until he was up on those bluffs do not vary a whole lot from what Wagner and others have presented in print. Any sleeping village caught with their pants down that could do what they did, and within that time frame is near impossible. You ought know better. So I checked Wagner's timing. As I suggested it was 30 plus minutes before the warriors began to come out in force.
1.16 pm Reno crosses Ford A 1.35 pm Dismount ordered 1.46 M flankers reach village 2.08 Reno begins to withdraw to the timber
Had the village been on high alert, they would have seen Custer/Reno approaching. They would have seen fording by Reno. The alarm wasn't sounding until Reno was on top off them. Crazy horse and his boys didn't get their face paint on for another hour. The village, in my opinion, was not expecting an attack on the 25th. They rallied well but they were caught with their pants down as you say. Had Custer gone in as one, he would most definitely have caught them napping. His splitting and indecisive actions allowed the Indians to regroup and get out to face him.
False Read what Gerard states at the RCOI Gerard states that "all" the Indians were coming up the valley as they crossed.
digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.Reno.p0098&id=History.Reno&isize=M
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 7, 2016 13:42:44 GMT
19 minutes to dismount. A couple of things to consider.
It is not long in the context of the geography.
Happy to be corrected but it is about the time separation I would expect for an Advance Guard which I believe Reno thought he was. Remember he was never ordered to assault the village. That would be crazy. His job was to engage the warriors and set up for Custer and the main force.
His men were incapable of fighting from the saddle.
There were warriors in the ravine and anyway his men were incapable of crossing the ravine in any timely manner.
Just because some of the thousands of participants were swimming, sleeping or just not noticing does not mean that there were not hundreds paying attention and confronting Reno.
Dismount to Reno's charge away 33 minutes not so long for Crazy Horse to do his rituals and to have already reached the Reno position.
Cheers
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 7, 2016 13:52:25 GMT
Matt, Wolf Tooth was at the other end of the battlefield, nearer to the Park entrance and Chuck's favorite burger joint, he began harassing Keogh and others of Custer's column as soon as they arrived in the northern environs. He would not have encountered Reno. Regards, Tom You missed my point or perhaps I wasn't clear. My point was if Wolf Tooth was out as guard then upon seeing Custer/Reno advancing his first action would have been to alert the village, not wait for Custer to come to the bluffs so he could take potshots at them. I think he just happened upon Custer while out hunting. The Indians were expecting a morning attack, not a midday attack. Regards Matt You have a right to your opinion but you can not make up your own facts. Wolf Tooth was told to stay in village because they knew the troops were coming. He left on his own with one other. Others did the same thing and they joined up on Custer creek.
Wolf Tooth was not on guard he left after being told to stay in the village. He was joined by others that thought like him and were looking to engage.
Another Indian had to ride to him and tell them that Custer was approaching. Wolf Tooth responded to that information. So the messenger had information of Custer's location. Not hardly a sleeping village.
Wolf Tooth did not discover Custer on his own he was informed by another of where Custer was located. He then moved to attack.
What's your timeline for when Wolf Tooth was told to stay in the village? How can you possibly believe there was a sleeping village when they knew Custer was coming and told everyone to stay in the village?
Read what Sitting Bull had visions of and when did that occur?
Please don't distort facts.
Thanks
AZ Ranger
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 15:45:40 GMT
Steve: I want you to know that it is always appreciated when I have theory validated by someone with your intimate, and in fact extraordinary, knowledge of the battle space. To me it stays theory until you bless it, for I have only one visit and some pretty good maps to go on.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 15:56:06 GMT
You are correct Mac. The nineteen minutes would be about right for an advanced guard mission. We must also remember that part of that mission was clearing to wood line along the river, which would tend to slow the main part of the AG down a bit. It would negate that effort for the main part of the AG to get in advance of the flankers in the wood line.
The sleeping, swimming, turnip picking add to the Indian narrative, the one they want to put forth and have everyone believe.
These people were warriors, and Gideon tells us from long ago that a warrior does not lap water like a dog, but rather kneels, keeping always alert, and scooping the water with his hand. The tactics of the ancients are as good today as they were then, and the techniques and procedures of those WHO ARE WARRIORS are equally valid.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 16:52:53 GMT
OK Mr. Combat vet when in your vast experience in theater did you not anticipate combat. You were one goddamned poor soldier if you did not anticipate it at any time, all the time.
You are not conversant with the facts, and the facts are that Indians started coming out of the south end of that village about the same time as Reno was crossing at Ford A, they were in that ditch long before that ditch was in Reno's immediate front, and that envelopment from the north and west was either pre-planned or fortuitous extemporaneous thinking worthy of a Murat or Kellerman.
The un-shined part of your belt buckle is showing again, in that you have read the stories, most of which are not true, and have no ability to discern that these stories are not consistent with the facts on the ground. That is not the mark of a soldier, especially one who claims to be a combat vet, of how many tours was it. Rather it is the mark of one who has never been exposed to any military education or training of any sort. If you were you would know that you believe none of what you hear (or in this instance read) and only half of what you see. Your ability to digest and discern is at the pre-potty training level as far as military affairs go.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 18:30:31 GMT
The facts show that they were not slow at all. Those are the facts that you in your ignorance of these things choose to ignore. As Steve said you are entitled to your own opinion , no matter how ill informed it may be. What you are not entitled to is your own set of facts.
Enough of your nonsense. I suppose in your vast combat experience you never heard of a fifty-fifty or a five minute notice. Wonder why that is, but you and I both know, don't we.
Here is where your bucket fails to hold water. Our metro district has its own fire department. Except for a relatively small built up area that district is as large, perhaps slightly more so, than the entire LBH battle space. I just stopped by the fire department a half hour ago to drop off some material from my wife, who signs their pay checks and as an elected metro district official broadly supervises the department. When I arrived two firemen were outside one tending the flower beds, the other washing the brush truck. On entering I found one preparing the noon meal, another watching TV, and the other three on duty sleeping in their quarters. The response time for call to arrival on location for them is anywhere in the district in less than ten minutes, from any posture, day or night. That is the standard.
Now you are telling me that none of these Indians in that village were on alert, none expected any combat action, none could respond in a timely manner, no matter what they were doing, no one had thought out what we do we do IF. That sir is completely absurd, and you even more so for suggesting same . You don't give them any credit at all. It is a complete wonder that they had survived for millennia is it not? You are just like all the rest, thinking these people could not be superior soldiers to anyone they faced including white men, because after all they were savages, unworthy of having any intelligence beyond the ability of the guttural grunt. That is why you have continually looked for a scapegoat of these boards as a reason for those naked beasts being able to whip the snot out of the U S Army. The frigging reason is as plain as the nose I would expect to find on your face. They were better frigging soldiers, led by people who led by example, and who knew their shit. |
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 7, 2016 19:18:04 GMT
By "all", are we to believe "all" 2,000 or 3,000 Indians were coming up the valley to greet Reno? "All" is pretty inclusive.
We know "all" the Indians were not coming up the valley. Only a very small fraction of the Indians came out initially to engage Reno. It was 45 minutes before Reno felt any significant pressure. No soldiers had yet been killed. 90 odd poorly trained, poorly equipped, and poorly led soldiers charged down the valley to the front door of the village. It took the thousands of Indians almost an hour to get organized and bring any pressure on Reno's position.
Fact remains, the village was caught napping and was not expecting an attack on the 25th.
The quote was by Gerard, he was referencing that the Indians were no longer running, not Steve's quote. I have seen it as well. In red, you do not know it to be fact. You and many others believe it to be fact, but is still opinion. Your opinion may be justified, due to traditional theory, that like much else about this is everyone's best guess. Exploring other theories is fair game, especially when justified. |
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 7, 2016 19:27:45 GMT
I think that with a village of this magnitude to have all its fighting man gathered in one place in a short space of time would take some beating, even if they were all expecting an attack, then they assembled as the word spread from tribe to tribe and band to band.
They would I expect have a couple of people watching the obvious routes and these would alert their own tribe first.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 7, 2016 19:40:00 GMT
Matt
You are wrong. I don't see how you can read what Chuck wrote and still believe the village was asleep.
One of the things we heard on the 2016 field trip is that the village knew Custer was coming and was ordered to stay within the village in preparation. Wolf Tooth disobeyed and left on his own. (Weir type). Others left and they joined up on Custer Creek which is across highway 212 near the trading post.
Apparently Wolf Tooth was called back when the soldiers were observed in Reno Creek.
I had not put together what Chuck said about the security on the fords but it makes sense and indicates a preparation.
I have made observations in the past that when the Indians moved to Reno's flank and to his rear this had to be aplanned attack. They left the village to other forces for security of the families. The usual expectation would be that they formed a screen between the troopers and their families.
This is huge difference and I think Sgt Ryan states it French. Reno observed what was going on and based upon the totality of the situation decided to break out and rejoin the regiment.
Regards
AZ Ranger I agree they knew he was coming and others too. I don't believe however that they were prepared for or expecting an attack on the 25th.
A doubt the attack on Reno's flank was a planned attack. More likely they simply took advantage of a glaring mistake - three companies couldn't hold a skirmish line across the valley. When opportunity knocks.
If a June 25th mid afternoon attack was expected and anticipated, why were the women and children still in the village going about everyday activities? I would think they would have already been moved north. Why did it take CH hours to get into the fight?
The glaring mistake was that of the overall commander who sent too few troopers to attack a village of unsure location that was filled with warriors of uncertain numbers. And, then went gallivanting around trying to figure out what to do next and where.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 7, 2016 19:54:47 GMT
Now you are telling me that none of these Indians in that village were on alert, none expected any combat action, none could respond in a timely manner, no matter what they were doing, no one had thought out what we do we do IF. That sir is completely absurd, and you even more so for suggesting same . You don't give them any credit at all. It is a complete wonder that they had survived for millennia is it not? You are just like all the rest, thinking these people could not be superior soldiers to anyone they faced including white men, because after all they were savages, unworthy of having any intelligence beyond the ability of the guttural grunt. That is why you have continually looked for a scapegoat of these boards as a reason for those naked beasts being able to whip the snot out of the U S Army. The frigging reason is as plain as the nose I would expect to find on your face. They were better frigging soldiers, led by people who led by example, and who knew their shit. Chuck, Adding this, I half expect the ghost of D.C. to haunt me tonight. So be it, I will sleep with the light on.
There was a group on alert, a Warrior Society, as I recall it was the Elk Scrapers. When in camp or traveling one society was in charge of the group. The Sioux also had Warrior Societies. I thank our sister board for what follows, as otherwise I would have had to type it out again.
Cheyenne military societies
Cheyenne military societies were one of the two central institutions of traditional Cheyenne Indian tribal governance, the other being the Council of Forty-four. While council chiefs were responsible for overall governance of individual bands and the tribe as a whole, the chiefs or headmen of military societies were in charge of maintaining discipline within the tribe, overseeing tribal hunts and ceremonies, and providing military leadership.[1] Council chiefs selected which of the six military societies would assume these duties; after a period of time on-duty, the chiefs would select a different society to take up the duties.[2]
Four original societies
These four societies were the original Cheyenne military societies established by the prophet Sweet Medicine. Over the ages, some have developed branches or have transformed.
Fox
Fox Warriors Society (Vóhkêséhetaneo'o or Monêsóonetaneo'o),[3] also known as Swift Fox or Kitfox. This society is found among both the Northern and the Southern Cheyenne. The Coyote Warriors Society (O'ôhoménotâxeo'o) and Flintmen Society (Motsêsóonetaneo'o) are branches of the Fox Warriors Society. [3]
Elk
Elk Warriors Society (Vóhkêséhetaneo'o or Monêsóo) also known as Elk Horn Scrapers, Bone Scraper Society, Hoof Rattle, Crooked Lance, Headed Lance or Medicine Lance.[4] This society is found among both the Northern and the Southern Cheyenne. This was the society of the famous warrior Roman Nose, and also of the mixed-blood Cheyenne George Bent.
Shield
Shield Warriors Society (Ma'êhoohevaso),[3] also known as Red Shield.[5] This society was originally found in both the Northern and the Southern Cheyenne, but today is found only among the Northern Cheyenne. Buffalo Warriors (Hotóanótâxeo'o), [3] also known as Buffalo Bull or Bull, [6] is a branch of the Shield Warriors Society.
Bowstring
Bowstring Men (Héma'tanóohese),[3] also known as the Owl Man's Bowstring. This society was originally found in both the Northern and the Southern Cheyenne, but today is found only among the Southern Cheyenne.[6] Wolf Warriors Society (Ho'néhenótâxeo'o) [3] is the alternate name for the Bowstring Men among the Southern Cheyenne. This society developed out of the Bowstring Men in the 19th Century by a vision held by Owl Friend.[6]
Fifth society
Dog Warrior Society (Hotamétaneo'o),[3] also known as Dog Men. This society was also called Dog Soldiers by the whites. The Dog Warrior Society was established by a directive given in a visionary dream after the prophet Sweet Medicine's departure. This society was originally found in both the Northern and the Southern Cheyenne, but today is found only among the Southern Cheyenne.[6]
Crazy Dogs (Hotamémâsêhao'o),[3] also known as Foolish Dogs. This society is similar to the Bowstring Men in function but found only among the Northern Cheyenne. Among the Northern Cheyenne, Dog Warrior Society and Wolf Warriors merged, which resulted in the development of the new breed of Dog Warriors now called the Crazy Dogs. The Crazy Dogs are considered by many to be a sixth society instead of a branch of the fifth society.[6]
Sixth society
Contrary Warriors Society (Hohnóhkao'o),[3] also known as the Inverted Bow-string Society. Its members, the Contrary Warriors, have proved in bravery by riding backward into battle.[7]
Contrary Society, also known as Clown Society.[6] This society draws upon the same spiritual powers as the Contrary Warriors Society; this society was primarily composed of Cheyenne elders and may be a mature variation of the Contrary Warriors Society. They were charged with educating the Cheyenne ceremonial ways of the cultural "dos" and "don'ts" through humour, sarcasm and satire, in a fashion that is contrary to the normalcy of traditional Cheyenne culture.
Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/690#ixzz4DkpmPrkW
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 20:37:28 GMT
You have some real funny relatives Tom.
That is why those societies existed. They were sworn to protect their tribe or in some instances elements of the tribe. They were the police department, the fire department, the ambulance service, the National Guard, and sold Girl Scout Cookies on the side. Probably helped little old ladies ford the river as well.
They were the ones that made some sense of normalcy exist in the rest of the tribal society, but I don't know why I am telling you this, you already know it, because unlike the pretend brain surgeon, who is really a butcher, you do your homework on these things.
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Post by Beth on Jul 7, 2016 20:48:01 GMT
Matt the pony herd on the bench were not all of the ponies. The warriors kept their own favorite mounts closer. The herd on the bench were extra and ones that may not be owned by warriors. NA families would own a number of horses because it was a measure of their wealth. You can not say they were caught unaware because there were ponies on the bench.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 20:55:42 GMT
Yes he can, and he does.
I just love it when he goes on these ignorant tirades of his, it reinforces in my mind how smart you all are, when you intelligently make fact based responses to his blatant ignorance of the facts.
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Post by Beth on Jul 7, 2016 21:27:00 GMT
Personally I think the best proof that the NA were expecting an imminent attack was that the dance held the night before the attack was for the Suicide Boys.
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