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Post by yanmacca on Jul 9, 2016 10:16:24 GMT
Tom I have never read that book, but I can see were they are coming from as it seems obvious to me that this village was not in a state of stasis but on a war footing.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 9, 2016 12:54:51 GMT
Matt
I learned about ambushes in basic infantry training school. In what branch of the military did you serve where they taught you that staying in the village would be an ambush?
As far as fear of retribution in regards to influence on Indians accounts, I would be surprised that you could have read much about this battle without coming across the potential tainting of accounts.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 9, 2016 13:51:41 GMT
Mark: Are you aware of Fred's book "Strategy for defeat"? If so and you have a copy, then go to pages 97-98 and look at the list of Indian names of the people who say that they were aware that the soldiers were coming. You get actual comments by these people who were actually in the village at the time. OF COURSE THEY KNEW THEY WERE COMING!
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 9, 2016 16:09:01 GMT
Well we can both cherry pick which accounts to post up, that's why I just gave you the page number so you can make your own mind up. But in truth they were spotted moving up the valley towards Reno and made him stop dead in his tracks, so some individuals must have warned them otherwise Reno would have been in their guts. Reno's battalion skirted the timber lined river which would have masked his advance, but reading accounts that they knew by the time the soldiers reach the Lone Tepee and they knew when he got within a few miles of the village must ring true, but with a village of this size it would be impossible to warn every one by word of mouth and that's why you get so many mixed views.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2016 17:35:05 GMT
Well now, lets just look at Iron Cedar's account.
You make the "assumption" then that Gall was with his family "fretting" or aware of their fate. There is nothing in Iron Cedar's account that suggests that Gall was anywhere near his family when Iron Cedar sought him out. Fretting and knowing actually point to something different altogether. If he was fretting, then he (Gall) did not know of their fate which would suggest he was not with them. You don't fret about the known. You fret about the unknown. Knowing about their fate does not conclusively put him with them as well.
Where, at what point of observation did Iron Cedar spot Custer on the bluffs. Custer was only on the bluffs at one point in the battle, and that is speculative. The only place he "could have been seen" was at 3411 overlooking the Reno fight in the valley. If you are suggesting that this is where he was seen by Iron Cedar then combat in the valley was already in progress, the dismount by Reno already done. It would be quite natural for Iron Cedar to seek out Gall, and equally natural to assume that Gall was near by, and not a half mile or so to the north in the village.
This goes back to the fact that you have never been to the battlefield lest you would know, that from that valley, you cannot see squat if someone is standing or riding on those bluffs ten to fifteen feet east from the edge of the bluffs themselves. Look at the banner on this site. That battlespace you see in the upper center of that picture is where all this took place.
Preparation is relative, you pick out five, six, or seven accounts, out of the thousands of warriors there, and from the even more thousands of the people who witnessed the affair, and assume totality from seven.
Your idea of being prepared is 100% warrior availability in a stand to mode, and no one is, or has ever, suggested that is what is or was meant by being "more prepared than what they have been given credit for". To satisfy your lack of focused small mind. They were not in a stand to mode. They did not all react at once. They did react when news reached them either verbally or by the sound of firing. Those on the south end reacted faster because of proximity to those in the more northern circles. The battle space was prepared in terms of critical points being identified. That does not mean preparation included being manned 24/7. The guns at the cul de sac that was Balaclava were not fully manned when the light brigade attacked either, but that does not mean that the light brigade was not being observed, and that those guns could not be brought into action within a moment or two.
Some guy is always away taking a crap, and what you are doing is basing your judgment on the guy taking the crap, instead of all the others who were not.
Now you have gone over this many times, and you still don't have the time down.
You say it took more than an hour from Reno crossing the river until the village was warned. Nonsense. Wagner, who I disagree with almost exclusively, still presents the best time line available, and you posted it above, and there is nothing there that suggests that it took an hour from crossing until the point where they were first engaged. In fact it says that from crossing until starting the break out was about an hour. My crazy old Aunt Bess could cover the distance between the Ford and the south end of that camp in less than an hour in her wheelchair. Don't be silly and expect us to buy this stuff from you.
You also stated that it took Crazy Horse two hours to arrive at the Reno site. He did prepare himself ritualistically, but most accounts put that at half an hour or less. But you stick to your story and let's see where it leads us. Crossing at Ford A 1:18 PM. Engagement begins, and Reno is stopped by a combination of fire and ditch when he dismounts 19 minutes later. So for the sake of argument, lets say that Crazy Horse starts his preparations at about 1:30, We know by a multitude of accounts that Crazy Horse reached the battlefield south of the camp before, but just as Reno was breaking out. That makes it half hour to prepare and about 10 to 12 minutes to reach that battle space and be seen by hundreds. Then he turns around as news reaches him of Custer's presence elsewhere, moves across the river at either Ford B or C (maybe even D - take your pick for the location is in dispute), moves up to the battle ridge area, and is in that area in time to take a notable part in the fighting.
Had Crazy Horse taken two hours to prepare himself for battle and these same events would have transpired in the exact same manner and sequence, Crazy Horse would have arrived at the Reno area about 3:30 PM well after Reno had gone, then he would have to turn around, negotiate all that terrain, engage in a firefight, his presence being noted by hundreds, his individual bravery runs legendary, and Custer was dead by 4:30 and the battle over. Your reading of the timeline stinks. This is indicative of you not being able to read, discern meaning, count, and add and subtract, or all of the above.
You are playing this in a figurative sand box, where you move the toy soldiers in one game turn. You have never been there, and that piece of Montana is not the sand box in your back yard, Unless you can come to grips with the time/space coefficient, realize that movements are made by real people, over real terrain, terrain where you might get shot at in the next second, therefore you by circumstance are not making best speed, and learn to read, and discern what you read drawing meaning from all not just your favorite accounts, then sifting them, discarding the outliers, you are wasting your time here, and wasting our time reading your uninformed opinion.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2016 17:47:42 GMT
No Mark that is not an ambush either. You don't have to close off anything for an ambush. In fact you must not. Closing off all is a dead giveaway. For an ambush to work everything must appear normal.
For an ambush to work you must have prior knowledge of the intended route of enemy travel. You must have time to get into position, overlooking you kill zone, well before the enemy appears, lest he detect your preparations, and trip you.
Why do you not admit that you do not have a tactical clue, and do not know the meaning of even the most basic terms?
You equate ambush with surprise, which is correct, surprise is the essential ingredient, but all pre-preparation and surprise do not constitute an ambush.
Any body of armed men in a combat environment, regardless of Sioux or Coldstream Guards make preparations to defend any camp they may occupy. Now if you do not know the difference between normal defensive preparation and preparedness from an ambush god help you, god help us all, for you are dense beyond belief.
So just go on making a fool of yourself because your statements here coupled with your pretend background do just that don't they Mark.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2016 18:26:30 GMT
We both know who you are and by my count it is the sixth time this morning and the 10th time in the last month, by several different people who both know how to read and spell. None of these were remarked upon by you until this afternoon, and then only because you have been taken to the woodshed.
I never suggested anything of the kind.
What I said was three fords were recognized as being vulnerable points and were thus outposted. The fourth Ford A was left open, to afford the Indians deep battle space if it was to be used. Never said one damned word about enticing anyone to use it. I was merely pointing out that they chose a different method with Ford A than they did with the other three. They did a good job at A, taking advantage of what they were given, a degree of separation between the ford and the village.
The other three are cheek by jowl with the village, and as such did not offer them the same luxury of a degree of separation. Learn to read what I said.
The Indians had no earthly idea from which direction Custer would come. They could logically conclude that he would follow the trail on his approach march, but from his chosen attack position on they had no clue as to how any expected attack would manifest itself. The proof of that is that they outposted Fords B thru D. Had they known from which way the attack would come why bother?
You cannot put intent in someone's mind. Drawing Custer down that valley was the worst thing the Indians could do from a tactical perspective, and by Custer I mean all of Custer, not three companies. There are only two places on that battlefield where a smaller force of cavalry using set piece drill TTP, have the advantage over a large force of loosely knitted together tribals those two being in the area of Ford A to the south end of the village, and the other being Ford D northward to Crow Agency. With he rest of that field the advantage goes to numbers coupled with Indian TTP.
Your book is a Daffy Duck comic.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 9, 2016 19:02:58 GMT
Well if Mark is correct and the village was caught with its trousers down, then their reaction to the sudden appearance of the Reno battalion was staggering, my god they quickly whipped up a storm and got moccasins on the ground in pretty fast order.
Reno even kept to the river course which would have obscured him from view until the last minute, so bravo the Indians.
Now I just need to work out who those folks were who Gerrard saw coming up the valley, hmmm...they weren't ticket touts were they, trying to get the paying public to pay for ring side seats.
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Post by Beth on Jul 9, 2016 20:05:30 GMT
There is also the account of Gall. Knew nothing of the attack until alarm sounded as Reno charged. His first action is to return to his tepee to find his family dead. In "Strategy of Defeat" Wagner notes on Pg 113 that Iron Cedar on seeing Custer on the bluffs goes looking for Gall. He says at this time "Gall was either fretting about the safety of his family or well aware of what had befallen them." So on this timeline Gall is just learning of the attack and beginning to engage; almost an hour after Reno crosses Ford A.
In totality, the accounts point to a village unprepared.
Regards Matt
I have never lived and worked in a war zone but it seems to me that if one was living in an area prone to attack you wouldn't constantly live in a foxhole with a gun in hand. You would go about with your everyday stuff because someone was keeping watch. I suspect it would be the same for the village, they were always prepared for an attack but individuals living there might not be on constant standby waiting for the attack. In an area as large as that village, spread out as far as it was--at the time of the attack someone is going to have been caught with pants down, or skirt up behind a bush. Perhaps it would be like living in tornado alley when the air just feels right for a bad storm. You keep a constant eye on the sky while you go about your day but you know your best information is going to be coming from storm and weather watchers so you have a weather radio and the TV on a local channel. The individual villagers would go about their business but they counted on others to keep an eye out to alert them.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2016 20:35:40 GMT
You are finally correct about something Mark. Ian is cute, and cuddly, I have seen his picture. You are also correct about Mark being a joke, and the joke is on you, for presuming that we are all stupid.
Actually it was more on the order of a hundred thirty soldiers, and a fair number of Indian scouts. Poorly trained, but by Wagner's timeline it was somewhere between 30 to 45 minutes. You have the book so you say, I don't, check me out.
You must also remember that even a poorly trained soldier can kill the best trained adversary. A low degree of enemy training does not make you bullet proof. Unfortunately that was proven two days ago, when highly trained police officers went up against a poorly trained idiot. In your vast non-military experience, did you never hear of the admonition - honor the threat. No, that would be all too much to expect.
Now I would be a might careful were I you, for as cute and cuddly as Ian is, the ban button is not far from his reach, and like the Indians he is always on the alert for the clownish fop that wanders inside his battle space.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 20:42:01 GMT
You are finally correct about something Mark. Ian is cute, and cuddly, I have seen his picture. You are also correct about Mark being a joke, and the joke is on you, for presuming that we are all stupid. Actually it was more on the order of a hundred thirty soldiers, and a fair number of Indian scouts. Poorly trained, but by Wagner's timeline it was somewhere between 30 to 45 minutes. You have the book so you say, I don't, check me out. You must also remember that even a poorly trained soldier can kill the best trained adversary. A low degree of enemy training does not make you bullet proof. Unfortunately that was proven two days ago, when highly trained police officers went up against a poorly trained idiot. In your vast non-military experience, did you never hear of the admonition - honor the threat. No, that would be all too much to expect. I am really not sure what I say or did but whatever it is, sorry. I have deleted all of my posts and am deactivating my account. Not worth the aggravation to me or you guys. Moderator, you can delete this post once I deactivate account. Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way. Regards Matt
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Post by quincannon on Jul 9, 2016 21:00:51 GMT
There was no need to do that.
All we expect here is that you back up an expressed opinion with fact, that you are open and honest with us, and that you do not try to deceive us by being something you are not.
I do not care if you are an octogenarian or a ten year old, or any stop in between. Just tell us what you are, and what you bring to the table. We try to work with all comers. The thing that is resented by most of us, is that you did not try to work with us.
As I stated yesterday, I am experienced and with more than a passing knowledge of military matters. I spent a good part of my adult life doing it, and from time to time still consult on aspects of the subject, but WHAT I WANT is for some bright lad to tell me something I did not know. I WANT them to change my mind, for I learned long ago that I do not have all the answers, not even half, and I want to improve myself. You had no such motivation, which is not a good attitude when you come to this place, for this place is first and foremost a class room, not a brainwash factory. We expect you to think for yourself, and that thinking starts by absorbing what others have to say, sifting and sorting it, then open your mouth and express either your opinion, your revised opinion, or simply I didn't know that.
You meet that standard and you are welcome here anytime, and I will be the first to send you greetings.
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Post by Beth on Jul 10, 2016 0:53:14 GMT
Well drat, someone had a hissy fit and took his ball home. He could have at least left the messages so the thread made sense.
Seriously Matt what everyone has been trying to tell you is that you are not being yourself and your posts were telegraphing it. You are welcome back at any time but don't pretend to be anything other than who you really are.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 10, 2016 13:12:20 GMT
Hey what was that banging sound, oh its ok it is only Matt throwing his toys out of the cot.
Bad form doing a runner young man, every member one on this site would bend over backwards to help you, but all they asked for was to be able to trust you first.
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