azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 29, 2016 11:49:57 GMT
I am shocked and appalled, shocked I say, to learn that fisticuffs and blanket parties are used as disciplinary measures in the nations armed forces, and about as surprised as Captain Renault was to find that there was gambling going on in Rick's back room. You can fool some of the people some of the time.
It was a second Lt. that observed us and he was stationed at Camp Pendleton.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Feb 29, 2016 14:35:57 GMT
I fear some of you may have though I was serious.
Officer's have a responsibility to apply discipline when these type things are brought to his attention. In fact anyone in a position of leadership has the same responsibility to take action. That said, it does go on and while I cannot condone it due to rank and position, I would be a fool not to realize that it goes on and is as Tom says, the application of soldier justice to those who let the team down.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 29, 2016 15:00:35 GMT
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 29, 2016 15:06:51 GMT
That's me on the right the other squad leaders and guide have their stripe. I would not change anything that I did. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by quincannon on Feb 29, 2016 15:36:29 GMT
If it is any comfort to you Steve I came out of both basic and AIT as a PVT E-1 was well. Of course in those days in the Army neither the E-1 or E-2 had a stripe, and I was not telling anyone.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 29, 2016 16:26:27 GMT
Sort of bringing this back to LBH weren't George and Tom Custer master pranksters? I believe George earned serious demerits by NOT breaking up a fight at West Point between 2 other cadets. Do not have full story but sort of recall he was an upper classman and had authority / duty to do so. Comments and enlightenment welcomed.
Best,
David
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carl
Recruit
Posts: 48
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Post by carl on Feb 29, 2016 16:41:52 GMT
If it is any comfort to you Steve I came out of both basic and AIT as a PVT E-1 was well. Of course in those days in the Army neither the E-1 or E-2 had a stripe, and I was not telling anyone. Speaking of E1. After I finished Engineering Draftsman course at Ft. Belvoir (3rd in my class), I was not immediately assigned and spent over a month as a casual - mostly doing labor for the Px - When the next class finished they were all promoted to E2 - of course I protested but to no avail. All worked out well, as I made E2 in my first regular unit the day I arrived.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 29, 2016 16:54:28 GMT
Yes Carl, that is the Army I remember, one where either you find the paperwork, or the paperwork finds you.
At least they did not have you on perpetual grease trap detail. or the ever popular grass cutting, in places that no one gave a damn if grass was growing in the first place. Then there is the not to be missed saw dust spreading extravaganza, where you cannot draw breath for the three days following.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 29, 2016 17:03:36 GMT
Carl, Good to hear from you!
I wonder if they use casual any more? I had a friend, a basic, set back, because he could not hack the PT, imagine that, in the Air Force. When he finally graduated he had missed his assigned school and spent 6 weeks in casual at Lackland, 4 years later he came back to Lackland as a trainer. Retrired E-8, 24 years.
David, Custer nearly was washed for his last stunt at the Point, if there had not been a war, I often wonder what would have become of him.
Chuck, When was the 1st structured basic training instituted?
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Feb 29, 2016 17:52:09 GMT
Sort of bringing this back to LBH weren't George and Tom Custer master pranksters? I believe George earned serious demerits by NOT breaking up a fight at West Point between 2 other cadets. Do not have full story but sort of recall he was an upper classman and had authority / duty to do so. Comments and enlightenment welcomed. Best, David If I am remembering correctly, he was charged with negligence of duty I believe and that was the incident that delayed him from leaving West Point with the rest of his class. It's covered in Custer's Trials.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 29, 2016 17:58:01 GMT
Don't know. In the 19th Century they would send new recruits to places like Carlyle and Jefferson Barracks which were used as recruit depots at least in peace time, but the structure of any training received was probably a haphazard affair.
Most training during wartime was conducted in the unit. In WWI and II a cadre for a new unit would be selected and moved to a mobilization station. The unit would then be filled with draftees who would fall in on that cadre. They would then proceed through phases of training, the first being called the basic phase.
Later on in WWII, probably late 43 replacement centers were established at places like our own Fort George G. Meade (there was another Fort Meade in South Dakota at the time) and I suspect what we would recognize now as a structured basic training is an outgrowth of that effort.
The Marines have had a formalized structure in which all must matriculate first for a very long time.
He (Custer) would have been the owner of a reenactor's uniform shop in Monroe, Michigan, and died of VD in 1865. The point here is that Custer never approached war as a serious business, where real peoples lives were on the line. His attitude, which we have come to take as one of I don't care, was really one of it's just a game. I think he took the game seriously, as does the reenactor, but where he fails is taking that that surrounds the game seriously, and that which surrounds is not a game at all, but very real where dead people do not get up and play another day.
Keep in mind here that the PRIMARY PURPOSE of all training is the effort to save lives. Therefore it is in my estimation criminal conduct to take untrained, marginally trained, or trained inadequate to the purpose soldiers into combat. It is nothing more than reckless indifference to human life, which in most states constitutes second degree murder.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 3, 2016 17:19:49 GMT
Hi Tom, once Custer was let loose then he was totally responsible for the 600+ men in that regiment, if you think that his superiors were at fault for for allowing him so much freedom then you may take into account the notion that they may have wanted a firebrand like Custer to cause havoc in the first place. I suppose in a similar fashion that if you are sending troops to break through the enemy lines then you send in your most aggressive commander to kick the place up a bit aka Patton, as in rugby, the old saying goes the meaner your coach is the meaner and tougher your players. Yan. I don't know what prompted me to come back to this dead thread, but once I did your statement above jumped out to me. I realized I had never responded to it and meant to with somethings I had read, most common knowledge, but this first, not so much. The statement was made by an Army engineer, who later became a Major General, US Army Corps of Engineers, William Ludlow. Ludlow was a graduate of Hudson High in 1864. As a Captain, Ludlow was the Chief Engineer on the Black Hills Expedition and as I recall he was also on the Yellowstone Expedition. He knew Custer well. Ludlow states in "the testimony of the late General Ludlow is interesting. According to him, Custer stated on the 8th of May, in St. Paul, Minnesota, that he intended, at the first chance he got in the campaign, to “cut loose from (and make his operations independent of) General Terry during the summer;” that he had “got away from Stanley and would be able to swing clear of Terry.”"
Then, General Gibbon also has gone on record in a letter to Terry regarding the situation: "“So great was my fear that Custer’s zeal would carry him forward too rapidly, that the last thing I said to him when bidding him good-by after his regiment had filed past you when starting on his march was, ‘Now, Custer, don’t be greedy, but wait for us.’ He replied gaily as, with a wave of his hand, he dashed off to follow his regiment, ‘No, I will not.’ Poor fellow! Knowing what we do now, and what an effect a fresh Indian trail seemed to have had upon him, perhaps we were expecting too much to anticipate a forbearance on his part which would have rendered cooperation of the two columns practicable. Except so far as to draw profit from past experience, it is perhaps useless to speculate as to what would have been the result had your plan, as originally agreed upon, been carried out. But I cannot help reflecting that in that case my column, supposing the Indian camp to have remained where it was when Custer struck it, would have been the first to reach it; that with our infantry and Gatling guns we should have been able to take care of ourselves, even though numbering only about two-thirds of Custer’s force; and that with six hundred cavalry in the neighborhood, led as only Custer could lead it, the result to the Indians would have been very different from what it was.”"
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 3, 2016 17:59:21 GMT
Hello Tom, wow I forgot I even wrote that, I got the last line about the coach from the late great Jack Gibson the Australian rugby league guru.
Reading about what Gibbon said really shows that they all knew just what Custer was like and as soon he smelt a trail he would stick any orders in his saddle bag and forget about them.
What else I found interesting was that once Gibbon and Terry had said goodbye to the 7th then they were predominantly slow moving infantry, so they must have known that they would days behind any attack made by cavalry, so either they forced their cavalry elements to remain with their columns or the infantry start out a week before the cavalry.
I know that it is hindsight on my behalf, but they should have known that once Custer left that he was going solo, he even refused Brisbans men and said it was a seventh affair, so all the clues were there and they all knew what he was like, especially if he smelt blood.
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Post by Beth on Jul 3, 2016 18:51:04 GMT
Often times we realize that 'we should have seen the clues' but I'm not sure if Terry really had any reason to suspect that Custer would disregard his instructions.
Remember Terry sends Custer out just days after Reno's scout and Custer was extremely indignant about how Reno didn't stick to his brief. Perhaps Terry took that to mean that Custer would not make the same mistake, especially when Sheridan was to have allegedly promised that Custer would show restrain.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 4, 2016 20:15:08 GMT
Did Custer disobey his orders? Every person who has ever served and every real student of military matters knows the words used, "He desires you should conform to them(his own views)unless", etc., convey a direct, positive command. Custer did not feel to the left, go to the Rosebud, the Tongue, explore Tullock's, or send the scout he was provided through to Terry/Gibbon. He intentionally created the best gray area he could to give himself shelter.
Did Custer plan to attack on the 25th, heck no, he was planning to attack on the 26th and resting his horses and men. He was hoping to gather more intelligence, while his men rested. He would still be ahead of Gibbon on the 26th and the glory would be his, and his reputation restored. Unfortunately, however, fate stepped in and reared it's ugly head. A box of hard bread had fallen from one of the pack-mules during the night march. When its loss was discovered, a squad of men had been sent back for it. They found an Indian trying to open it. He made his escape, and would undoubtedly alarm the villages they were approaching. And now we come to the problem. As the result of his disobedience he was now practically in contact with the enemy, although he should not have been. Being in contact, however, was where he wanted to be ? There were no orders to govern him now. He was thrown on his own resources — just what he wanted, and what he had schemed and planned for. How was he to deal with his self-created opportunity ? You know the rest of the story.
I should be posting this somewhere else, I am sure, but here I am and what can I do.
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