dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 18, 2016 0:13:36 GMT
Every time I think of the moderator on the L and L Board I am reminded of the Finley Cavalry print and I fall off my chair laughing. I think Ian has the print in his bag of tricks. Maybe he will post it for the enjoyment of almost all, save one. Perhaps this might be the art work in question? Regards Dave www.militaryart.com/uploads/Cav_with_Detail_long_format_jpeg.jpg
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Post by quincannon on Feb 18, 2016 0:22:53 GMT
That be the one. Will you look at the eyes on that guy. That's what belonging to the Fighting Army of Dakota will do for you. He is riding that helicopter capable Sheridan like it was a Lazy Boy recliner.
The Artillery print is the gem of the Finley collection though.
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Post by rebcav on Feb 27, 2016 16:32:42 GMT
A lot of breath gets expended talking about Lt. Col Custer's "Search for Glory", and "Arrogance" and sometimes (like in the movies) he's even portrayed as "slightly mad" that June Afternoon in Montana. Even more breath gets expended blaming Major Reno (who may or may not have disobeyed orders, I tend to think that if he'd have continued his charge into the village that he'd have met the same fate as his Commander) or bagging on Capt. Benteen for not following his orders to "come quick". (One thing I can't seem to get- WHY send Capt. Benteen "Valley Hopping ad Infinitum" if Custer had scouts that knew the terrain.....I mean why would the Indians camp in a valley so far from the Greasy Grass? His scouts should have thought of that, it would seem. Maybe things would have gone better if Capt. Benteen had stayed with either Maj. Reno or Lt.Col. Custer's column, but that debate is moot) Now I'm no expert on tactics here, (Marine Lance Corporals are just taught direct their fire teams to destroy whatever the Sgt. tells them to destroy.) But it would appear to me that Lt. Col. Custer didn't know the terrain, didn't do a thorough reconnaissance, either misunderstood the strength of the enemy or didn't believe it.... Then he split up his force in the face of an unknown enemy, (and we ALL know that the only General whup azz enough to do that successfully was THE Robert EDWARD Lee, but that's a story for another day.... ..) who happened to not only outnumber him but were better armed. Then he launches an attack that he SAID "would be supported by the whole outfit", but however he planned to do that kinda didn't ever materialize... I wasn't there; and I'd NEVER second guess the actions of a man in Combat that I wasn't personally in, and it's entirely likely that the 7th Cavalry units with Lt. Col. Custer performed valiantly right up to the final moments, but they were in an untenable situation. And no matter how anyone wants to dice it up, there's no getting around the fact that they were put IN that situation by the actions (or lack thereof) of their Commander. So yeah, I would have to put the responsibility (a better word; IMHO than "blame") on Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer(USA) Respectfully Submitted, Duane
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Post by quincannon on Feb 27, 2016 17:01:05 GMT
It is not only a better word Duane, but one that is more accurate.
Your kid hits a baseball through the neighbor's window, only your kid is to blame. Being your kid though, one not having reached adulthood, you, the father, are responsible
Blame and responsibility can go hand in hand
Blame can stand alone.
Responsibility, in a military setting, is always the mantle the commander, and only he carries it for everything, good or bad.
Custer was directly to blame, and responsible, for the actions of those five companies.
Custer was responsible for that dropped pack back along the trail, but no one can tag him with blame for a failure to tie the pack on the back of the mule securely, allowing it to come loose and fall to the ground.
I hope I have made this clear, because people always get these two completely different words confused as meaning the same.
Good post.
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Post by Beth on Feb 27, 2016 18:04:59 GMT
I agree totally with you about the difference between blame and responsibility but sometimes words have connotations beyond their meaning. Sometimes people don't like the word blame because it's kind of a 'loaded' word and therefore carries a lot more emotional baggage beyond the subject.
Another way one could look at things is the degrees of culpability of the individuals involved.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 27, 2016 19:16:42 GMT
It is much easier Beth to point the finger of blame, than it is to shoulder the mantle of responsibility.
In this politically correct world we live in, all we need to do is turn on our TV and see someone blamed for something or other. NEVER and I mean NEVER do any of these reports ever pin the tail on the donkey of responsibility.
The key here is in our studies, look for both blame and responsibility, and differentiate between the two.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 27, 2016 20:46:50 GMT
rebcav Your post below: For someone who is not an expert your post was extremely accurate and insightful. I especially agreed with the highlighted part below acknowledging a great soldier. Regards Dave "No I'm no expert on tactics here, (Marine Lance Corporals are just taught direct their fire teams to destroy whatever the Sgt. tells them to destroy.) But It would appear to me that Lt. Col. Custer didn't know the terrain, didn't do a thorough reconnaissance, either misunderstood the strength of the enemy or didn't believe it.... Then he split up his force in the face of an unknown enemy, (and we ALL know that the only General whup azz enough to do that was THE Robert EDWARD Lee, but that's a story for another day.... ..) who happened to not only outnumber him but were better armed. Then he launches an attack that he SAID "would be supported by the whole outfit", but however he planned to do that kinda didn't ever materialize..."
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Post by Beth on Feb 27, 2016 22:21:04 GMT
Bear with me QC. I was unable to finish my message as much as I wanted because of an appointment. Blame is a general term and very broad. Culpability has a legal definition of the measure of degree of responsibility that I think it interesting and possibly applicable. It is also easy to look to see if and how much culpability other officers may or may not have. I am borrowing these definitions from because they aren't excessively full of legalese but first is deciding if a person is culpable.
A person is culpable if they cause a negative event and (1) the act was intentional; (2) the act and its consequences could have been controlled (i.e., the agent knew the likely consequences, the agent was not coerced, and the agent overcame hurdles to make the event happen); and (3) the person provided no excuse or justification for the actions
After that is, if it fits finding if the person is criminal (doesn't really fit), knowingly, recklessly or negligently culpable.
A person causes a result purposely if the result is his/her goal in doing the action that causes it. Did Custer set out to kill everyone under his command. Probably not so he isn't purposely (Criminally) culpable. Same for Reno.
A person causes a result knowingly if he/she knows that the result is virtually certain to occur from the action he/she undertakes.
I don't think Custer was certain that he would wipe everyone out so he probably isn't knowingly culpable.
It's the last two that fit Custer was he reckless or just negligently: Does Reno or any other officer fit into the categories and perhaps what percentage of culpability would they have, if any.
A person causes a result recklessly if he/she is aware of and disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk of the result occurring from the action.
A person causes a result negligently if there is a substantial and unjustifiable risk he/she is unaware of but should be aware of.
Anyway it's just a suggestion as a way to look at blame
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Post by quincannon on Feb 27, 2016 23:18:47 GMT
Let's apply the Tenth Principle of War here Beth for the sake of clarity --- The Principle of KISS.
Blame is assigned for an error of commission or omission.
Responsibility is assigned as a function of the position you occupy.
We used to wear green felt loops on our uniforms called leadership tabs. They are probably gone now because of the change over in uniform from Greens to Blues. But back in the day you could tell those that would be held responsible, buy just looking for the green tabbers, those in a position of command and leadership. If I found something wrong in a squad I am looking to the squad leader, a green tabber, as the responsible party. If the problem continued I would go looking for that squad leaders platoon leader. If my battalion commander found something wrong in my company's kitchen, like steel wool in one of the cooking pots because someone was too lazy to clean them the correct way, he was not going to have a come to Jesus with the cook, he was going to have it with me. A hard and unfair, at times life, but one I would not trade for Trump's fortune.
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Post by rebcav on Feb 27, 2016 23:33:48 GMT
During the madness that IS Marine Corps Recruit Training, I ended up being "promoted" to Squad Leader. Which I thought was cool. But then I found out that at MCRD San Diego, when a recruit messes up and is invited to The Pit for "counseling" the Squad Leader also was invited along....After accompanying three of my squad mates to The Pit, I paid a hell of a lot more attention to what was going on with my squad. Because I realized that if they screwed up it was me that paid as well, because I screwed up by not catching it first. One of my first lessons in the Responsibilities of Leadership. And I remember it to this day.
Great discussion...Been Busy, gonna have to make an effort to stop by more often. Great seeing some of the Regulars are still keeping it live.
Sincerely, Duane
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 28, 2016 23:15:14 GMT
During the madness that IS Marine Corps Recruit Training, I ended up being "promoted" to Squad Leader. Which I thought was cool. But then I found out that at MCRD San Diego, when a recruit messes up and is invited to The Pit for "counseling" the Squad Leader also was invited along....After accompanying three of my squad mates to The Pit, I paid a hell of a lot more attention to what was going on with my squad. Because I realized that if they screwed up it was me that paid as well, because I screwed up by not catching it first. One of my first lessons in the Responsibilities of Leadership. And I remember it to this day.
Great discussion...Been Busy, gonna have to make an effort to stop by more often. Great seeing some of the Regulars are still keeping it live.
Sincerely, Duane I was second squad leader from day one. It was based on height. They said that anyone that kicked the squad leader's butt could have it. I told my squad what it entailed and that I would admit they kicked my butt if they wanted to be square leader. No takers
At the rifle range I was caught "correcting" a poor shooter with a blanket. For that I got to graduate as a private. The Gunny told me the good side was I could not go any lower in rank.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by quincannon on Feb 29, 2016 2:48:49 GMT
I am shocked and appalled, shocked I say, to learn that fisticuffs and blanket parties are used as disciplinary measures in the nations armed forces, and about as surprised as Captain Renault was to find that there was gambling going on in Rick's back room.
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Post by Beth on Feb 29, 2016 3:38:30 GMT
I am shocked and appalled, shocked I say, to learn that fisticuffs and blanket parties are used as disciplinary measures in the nations armed forces, and about as surprised as Captain Renault was to find that there was gambling going on in Rick's back room. And yet West Point has banned their annual pillow fight.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 29, 2016 4:36:42 GMT
I am shocked and appalled, shocked I say, to learn that fisticuffs and blanket parties are used as disciplinary measures in the nations armed forces, and about as surprised as Captain Renault was to find that there was gambling going on in Rick's back room. Staying out of yhis one. Better part of valor and all that! :-)
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 29, 2016 11:19:18 GMT
All, Menthol shave cream and other ointments have also been applied to nether, regions externally and occasionally internally. The last time I saw this, the action was performed by 4 Airmen Basic types, to a "Rat Bastard" squad leader. Also while pillow fights are officially banned, enforcement is selective. By the way, this type of bottom up corporal punishment may have saved some of the individuals from being fragged in their future.
Regards, Tom
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