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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2016 20:43:47 GMT
And a glorious day it was for the United States Army, reduced to the role of thug and kidnapper.
I don't think he went in looking to capture women and children as a means od demanding submission. Again he bit off more than he could chew and required a woman's skirt to escape.
And a glorious day it was for the United States Army, hiding behind a skirt to make a get away, because the commander was an idiot, narcissist, kidnapper, and thug.
"Valley Forge, Kidnapper's Ranks, San Juan Hill, and Patton's Tanks, and the Army goes rolling along"
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Post by Beth on Jun 1, 2016 21:33:25 GMT
I suspect that it wasn't the first time a military leader was less than glorious, nor the last time. The law of averages say that you are going to get a bad apple now and then.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2016 21:44:21 GMT
Sure you do, but when you do there is no inherent requirement to glorify the pansy ass piece of shit in story and song. You get rid of them.
There is a very famous picture of a group of Marine officers taken on 11 August 1942, four days after the landing on Guadalcanal. If you have the Morison series it is on page 130 of "The Struggle For Guadalcanal". Found many other places as well. Among those pictured is one officer, whom I will not identify, who had a splendid record in WWI, with the 5th Marines. Few were as good or better. He was a miserable failure on Guadalcanal. He failed time and time again in that first six weeks, both tactically, and as a leader. He was relieved and replaced. I will bet there is not a Marine or former Marine living today who can recall his name, save perhaps Jon Hoffman, Puller's biographer, and maybe a few Marine Twinkies, who like me have a deep interest in this campaign. The man just disappeared, and Errol Flynn did not make a movie about him, nor does Captain Pretend dress up like him, and celebrate each August 8th
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 1, 2016 22:34:48 GMT
Chuck,
If his name started with A v and ended with a T I went to high school with his grandson and my kids went to school with his great grandchildren.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2016 23:30:01 GMT
No cigar.
Do you know the picture I referred to?
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Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2016 0:21:28 GMT
Sure you do, but when you do there is no inherent requirement to glorify the pansy ass piece of shit in story and song. You get rid of them.
There is a very famous picture of a group of Marine officers taken on 11 August 1942, four days after the landing on Guadalcanal. If you have the Morison series it is on page 130 of "The Struggle For Guadalcanal". Found many other places as well. Among those pictured is one officer, whom I will not identify, who had a splendid record in WWI, with the 5th Marines. Few were as good or better. He was a miserable failure on Guadalcanal. He failed time and time again in that first six weeks, both tactically, and as a leader. He was relieved and replaced. I will bet there is not a Marine or former Marine living today who can recall his name, save perhaps Jon Hoffman, Puller's biographer, and maybe a few Marine Twinkies, who like me have a deep interest in this campaign. The man just disappeared, and Errol Flynn did not make a movie about him, nor does Captain Pretend dress up like him, and celebrate each August 8th I can understand why such Custer's legend is so abhorrent to anyone who has spent their life making sure they conducted themselves with honor. Custer should be a cautionary tale, not a heroic example. Errol Flynn's Custer has very little to do with either the actual man or the actual battle. It was a a pre WWII propaganda film. To use it as a historical reference would be like using Mother Goose as a history text--some nursery rhymes may have some roots in history but they are not history. I tend to wonder today if people are drawn to studying about LBH because of Custer or in spite of Custer.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2016 0:57:36 GMT
I can only speak for myself, but I am drawn to the battle, not the man, a battle that should have been won, but for the man, and I want to know why.
This board is full of his failing, and perhaps an occasional good point thrown in. I want to know what mistakes were made. I want to know why they were made. Mostly I want to know how we manage not to repeat them, for the sake of those yet to come.
If one kid reads these pages, and the comments of most of us, and later grown to a position of military leadership, then reflects upon what he reads here, the importance of leaders being leaders not prima donnas, the importance of the use of sound tactical principles, not fly by the seat of your pants, the fact that the Great Captains were called great for a reason, the importance of constant, unrelenting training, that military education never stops, and finally that the leader is not to be served, but rather a servant of those in his charge, then every damned word I ever wrote will have been worth it.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 2, 2016 8:48:27 GMT
I give you all a helping hand (well besides Chuck because he knows the mans name); 1. Col George R. Rowan 2. Col Pedro A. del Valle 3. Col William C. James 4. Maj. Gen Alexander A. Vandegrift 5. Lt. Col Gerald C. Thomas 6. Col Clifton B. Cates 7. Col Randolph McC. Pate 8. Cdr Warwick T. Brown, USN 9. Col William J. Whaling 10. Col Frank B. Goettge 11. Col LeRoy P. Hunt, Jr. 12. Lt. Col Frederick C. Biebush 13. Lt. Col Edwin A. Pollock 14. Lt. Col Edmund J. Buckley 15. Lt. Col Walter W. Barr 16. Lt. Col Raymond P. Coffman 17. Lt. Col Francis R. Geraci 18. Lt. Col William E. Maxwell 19. Lt. Col Edward G. Hagen 20. Lt. Col William N. McKelvy, Jr. 21. Lt. Col Julian N. Frisbie 22. Maj Milton V. O'Connell 23. Maj William Chalfant III 24. Maj Horace W. Fuller 25. Maj Forest C. Thompson 26. Maj Robert G. Ballance 27. Maj Henry C. Buse, Jr. 28. Maj James W. Frazer 29. Maj Henry H. Crockett 30. Lt. Col Lenard B. Cresswell 31. Maj Robert O. Brown 32 Lt. Col John A. Bemis 33. Col Kenneth W. Benner 34. Maj Robert B. Luckey 35. Lt. Col Samuel B. Taxis 36. Lt. Col Eugene H. Price 37. Lt. Col Merrill B. Twining 38. Lt. Col Walker A. Reaves 39. Lt. Col John D. Macklin 40. Lt. Col Hawley C. Waterman 41. Maj James C. Murray, Jr. Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2016 12:14:05 GMT
Number 11 in the picture, Goettge, has only a few days to live. He led a patrol behind the lines, supposedly to accept the surrender of some isolated Japanese. Long story short, the patrol was wiped out nearly to the last man, Goettge was among the first to die. Really stupid move on his part, not the getting killed, but leading the patrol in the first place. Goettge as the division intelligence officer was privy to the fact that we had broken the Japanese codes. Had he been captured, or even killed and his body not recovered, that episode could very well have changed the course of the war in the Pacific. It could have effected Europe, against the Germans as well, in that while Goettge was not privy to Ultra, the Japanese would have certainly informed the Germans that the Allies had that amount of sophisticated (for the time) code breaking capability.
Goettge was not the officer I mentioned, and I will not reveal his name. That would not be fair to him, as he did serve to the best of his ability, and I do not question that, he just did not measure up. The point in mentioning him in the first place was that this officer had served very well in an earlier war, but that service was no guarantee that he was still at the top of his game.
This is something that rankles me when someone mentions Custer's service in the ACW. My thought is always - so what - LBH and the American west is not the ACW. Might as well say that Bill Haley and the Comets did a fine job with Rock Around The Clock so that automatically qualifies them to be the orchestra for the next production of Carmen at the Met.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 2, 2016 13:14:29 GMT
No cigar. Do you know the picture I referred to? I do now(pix).
I know my guy was kicked upstairs at about this time. I also know where he ended up and did not think he was moved for (bad)cause. The Marine Corps never subscribed to the f-up move up program. I have though, seen it elsewhere.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2016 13:37:04 GMT
If your guy was Alexander Archer Vandergrift he was indeed kicked upstairs, just a little later after he had beaten the snot out of the Japanese, been promoted to Lieutenant General, been awarded the Medal of Honor, and was kicked up to be Commandant of the Marine Corps. Other than that I don't have a clue who you are talking about. If it is other than Vandergrift PM me.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2016 14:07:55 GMT
Another interesting guy in that picture is the second from the left, first row Pedro Del Valle, born in San Juan, PR, grew up in Maryland, he was the first officer of Hispanic heritage to become a Lieutenant General, commanded the 1st MARDIV on Okinawa, and was the only officer in Marine Corp history to command a regiment (11th Marines) as an appointed Brigadier General. Got crazy anti-commie (Reds under the bed crazy - McCarthy crazy) after WWII, and that probably cost him the place he deserves in USMC history.
There are at least two future Commandants in that picture besides Vandergrift. In a way those men shaped a positive vision of the USMC, in a similar manner that Custer shaped an underserved positive image of the 7th Cavalry.
I chose August 8th above, and I am surprised that no one called me on it, as the landings at Guadalcanal occurred on August 7th. I chose the 8th because it was on that date that the Guadalcanal Beaches were secure, and the adjacent island of Tulagi was secured late that afternoon. The landing party had been landed, the situation was well in hand, and the message was sent to the world that Marines had landed, and their intention was to stay and hold. It shaped the vision of the Marine Corps in the mind of the general public, whom before that only knew of them from Bois de Belleau, and not much else. Forrestal remarked that the flag on Surabachi insured a Marine Corps for the next five hundred years, but the standard was set at Guadalcanal. Please never forget that.
Yes, I am an unashamed Marine Twinkie, in that I have a very soft spot for the USMC.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 2, 2016 14:41:55 GMT
QC I learned a lot about Guadalcanal and the Marines there from WEB Griffin's novels in the THE CORPS series. The novels provided a solid base form to use as a study guide for more serious study of the campaign and its participants, land, air and sea. Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 2, 2016 14:51:50 GMT
I have a full US marine rifle company all based up in 1/72 scale, I have had them for over twenty years and the reason I have not painted them was the mottled uniform, it would drive me crazy, I managed to do an SS company in a similar type smock, but I was younger then and my eyes were ok, but I didn't do the marines and a British parachute company, who also had a mottled tunic.
Yan.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 2, 2016 14:56:37 GMT
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