Ford D area

[mac]

After our discussion of the Cheyenne account of John Stands in Timber I have a few thoughts on the Ford D movement.

One version is that Custer went there to do reconnaissance in advance of an attack. If so would he want/need to go to the river and test the crossing?


Another version is that he went there to cross and take hostages. Is his force big enough for that mission?

Cheers

[yanmacca]

Hi Mac and thanks for starting this thread as I think that the JSIT theory still has legs.

The reconnaissance issue has got to be looked at with an aim to include the full picture, and that brings us to Reno, now Custer hadn’t seen Reno’s battalion since he supposedly left 3411, now wouldn’t this be on Custer’s mind that Reno was taking on the full weight of the village? Reno had 50 or 60 less men then Custer and each of these man would have around 80-100 rounds of carbine ammo (that would roughly give the battalion around 12.000 to 15.000 rounds), now that is a lot of lead.

But let’s say for arguments sake that they had 12.000, and half of this was in the saddle bags stuck with the horses back in the timber, so the command had 6.000 rounds available for immediate use.

Now say that each trooper would shoot say two aimed shots per minute, and say that they were engaging the enemy for fifteen minutes, now timing that by 150 would equate to 4.500 rounds used up in that time frame (would that leave 10 rounds per man?).

If this total is wrong then I advise against doing maths in your dinner break.

Anyway back to Custer, why would he contemplate anything less than a full attack, Reno was engaged, the Indians were drawn to the south, he had broken his back to get their as fast as he could, now he arrives at his destination with the largest battalion in the regiment at his disposal and goes on a recce mission, now I agree that he needed a ford or maybe two to get his five companies across, it took long enough for Reno to get his three across at ford A.

But I don’t think that Custer would ever think of losing momentum and I wouldn’t at all be surprized if he left only Calhoun and his 43 men behind to keep a lane open and fire on the ford (B) below and proceeded at full speed with the other four in an attempt to get around the back of the village.

Yan.

[quincannon]

Mac:

1) No need, and no need to advertise the place he intends to attack.

2) No

[deadwoodgultch]

You might say that was a never, never do, that is to recon Ford D with 2 companies. You are stringing out your support and giving your enemy time and locations to cut you down piecemeal. This I hope Custer would not do, leaving 3 companies behind. So I would hope JSIT is close to right, it makes GAC look smarter than traditional accounts. On this day especially after a view from 3411, the Lt.Col. had to know the approximate odds he was up against. In fact the romp from this point on was using tunnel vision to go into "Never, Never Land".

I am looking for a way to say that GAC was not knowledgeable about the battlespace he is about to enter, or the foe he was facing. I am not sure he asked his scouts the right questions, or if he did, he ignored the answers, as it was not what he wanted to hear. I also don't think he was seeing what was presented. When GAC left his view of Reno, he thought little more of that portion of the battle. Reno could do what was required, and he did. The problem is that no matter what transpired with Reno, even if he fought to the last man, he would not have saved Custer, predicated upon Custer's actions from that point on.

[yanmacca]

Custer may have been aware of the presence of wolftooth and his band fifty ever since he reached the end of cedar coulee, and this presence may have forced him to play safety first and head for the high ground, these coulees were great for masking your advance but would quickly become death traps if your enemy knew you were using them.

If this were true then if Custer didn't spot WT, then he may have used MTC as his main attack rout and one of the reasons could be why he placed his scout detachment of Bouyer and four Crows between himself and the village, and these men skirted the high ground on the western side of MTC which gave him prior knowledge of any reception committee. 

Yan.

[quincannon]

Tom: The only way I can see that Custer would not be knowledgeable about the battle space he was about to enter, and thus the odds, is if he never went to 3411 or anywhere else, to view the Reno fight, or peer over the edge of that bluff to actually see the village.

That, not viewing, does not make him look any smarter, but I do get your meaning.

Does any evidence exist that Custer actually did view anything from the bluffs. By this does anyone conclusively put Custer there, only Custer mind you, with others perhaps, but Custer the man, in person, no quibble, no possibility of mistake? I don't think there is any such evidence, but I would welcome someone pointing out where I am wrong.

[yanmacca]

Chuck, I think the only account of any viewing from the bluffs came from Martini, he claims to have been at the general’s side all day until being dispatched with the note, be we all know that he was prone to exaggeration, the same could be said about DeRudio and how he saw three men on bluffs overlooking the timber.

Yan.

[quincannon]

There was another from that artist that hung around with the Crows as well, but he was not there, and supposedly took the Crows word as absolute Gospel. What we don't know about him, at least I don't is if he was conversant in Crow, and did the Crows know what they were talking about. We do know that TR did not buy the story, and discouraged its publication, at least that's what the History Channel had to say.

I look at that banner above, and I will be damned if I could recognize anyone out in the field in the center of the photo from that distance, and I assume that the reverse is true.

[yanmacca]

May 30, 2016 21:28:52 GMT quincannon said:

I look at that banner above, and I will be damned if I could recognize anyone out in the field in the center of the photo from that distance, and I assume that the reverse is true.

And that's on a clear day with no dust or gun smoke, apparently the Indians stirred up as much dust as they could to obscure the village.

There is something about the DeRudio tale that seems rather strange, now he was 2/inc of A Company which took around 41 officers/NCOs/EMs into that valley, now was he lacking in his duty to be hiding in the timber at this stage of the battle? apparently A Company was still fighting in skirmish order when DeRudio saw the men on the bluffs and he claims his vantage point was in the timber, does this sound right to you folks that an officer should be this far away from his men, when they have yet to be given the order to pull back.

Yan.

[quincannon]

Does not that tale of seeing Company E on the bluffs, riding off into the unknown, and to their destiny, remind you of the similar story of the Sandringham Company stepping off into the fog shrouded landscape never to be heard from again?

Problem is, with that era the romance seemed to be far more important than the facts of the matter. So much so in fact, that someone looking from the perspective of a latter day, is forced to be suspicious of such tales. Not saying they did not happen, just saying the silver may be polished to a greater luster than it deserves.

[yanmacca]

I find it interesting that only E Company was spotted, what happened to the other four, did they vanish or something, I would reckon that Company E would be either first or second in line so either their horses were easy to see or they were operating independently of the main column.

Yan.

[quincannon]

If the column was staggered as it should have been I see no problem with only one company being spotted.

I think the problem may be mine, for the longer I stay on these boards the less inclined I am to accept anything from any one contemporary account, as well as some of the dogma peddlers that all of us have seen in these various precincts, writ large, at face value. None here of the latter, thank God..

[quincannon]

Probably time we got back a little more on track concerning Ford D itself and the journey to that place. Tom's subject matter sidebar was on track but led us to concentrate a little too much at 3411 and not Ford D.

I would like to begin with the examination of what I consider patent nonsense - Custer always attacked.

Any commander will attack when he feels the situation is right, the opportunity for such action presents itself, and there is something to be gained. Custer did his fair share of attacking, but he did not always attack, and to say so is so much childish drivel.

Case in point. Custer did not attack at Buckland Mills, when everyone else including his commander was both of a mind to , and ordered same. To his credit, Custer smelled a rat, and envisioned the trap that was set for Kilpatrick. He prudently held back, and as a result, was still driven, but saved his guns and assisted Kilpatrick in getting the hell away from Stuart and Company.

Be careful what you attribute to someone, as it clouds the issue. In this case whether he took two companies to Ford D or four as many of us suspect, we have no way of knowing his intentions, for that knowledge died with him, but to say it could only mean his intention was to attack is purposeful purveyance of poop, without one piece of toilet paper to wipe your butt with.

[yanmacca]

If he did advance to the northern ford then he must have been drawn there by something, I suppose that we cannot prove either way if this was just a recce or an attack, but lets look at things in real time, eight companies which made up his combat strength had rode together to locate their quarry, he detaches three companies to advance to contact, which the expectation that these will soon be fighting, then he goes around the flank, now he knows that while he is traveling (at a rapid gait too) over the bluffs to get to his destination, Reno would be engaged so I would imagine that Custer knew that all the time he was riding Reno would be fighting, so now when he finally arrives overlooking the village that he goes on a recce? with the knowledge that his 2/inc had been fighting a solo battle for the duration of Custer's trek.

[Beth]

May 31, 2016 15:03:38 GMT quincannon said:

Does not that tale of seeing Company E on the bluffs, riding off into the unknown, and to their destiny, remind you of the similar story of the Sandringham Company stepping off into the fog shrouded landscape never to be heard from again?

Problem is, with that era the romance seemed to be far more important than the facts of the matter. So much so in fact, that someone looking from the perspective of a latter day, is forced to be suspicious of such tales. Not saying they did not happen, just saying the silver may be polished to a greater luster than it deserves.

It also reminds me of the mirage story when the 7th left FAL.