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Post by quincannon on May 31, 2016 20:02:32 GMT
I rest my case.
The fru fra of romance has so clouded what really happened that we, if we are serious people, can't take one goddamned thing for complete truth, until it is tested, run through the wringer, kicked in the ass a couple of times, and generally beaten bloody until the truth falls out.
Our world needs a whole lot less of Errol Flynn, and a whole lot more of liar, liar, pants on fire.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 1, 2016 0:44:13 GMT
Happy to see this thread revived! I agree with the notion that too much has been given to romantic notions with few reliable references. First If Custer knew the disposition of the village (as he should have) does anyone really believe he would leave the valley as he did? I don't. When he reaches the top of MTC he can see it just leads into the village which is a place he does not want to go to. However he must not leave MTC unguarded; so he leaves 20% of his force Company L (his biggest company) as a rear guard. This makes sense to me. If JSIT is correct he moves towards Ford D with the rest. I am leaning towards him not getting too far before he gets a message from Calhoun saying he needs more men. In this case Companies C and I would return before Custer reaches MTC. Custer's trip then becomes different (due to the loss of C and I ) than might have been his original intention. Thoughts? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2016 1:48:38 GMT
Good post Mac.
To your first point, never in a million years. His mistake was not knowing the exact size and disposition of that arrayed against him. That is something like starting off to the grocery store, without prior knowledge of where that store is, they flailing around trying to find it until you run out of gas.
I also agree that one company would be thought sufficient as a rear guard, based upon what he had yet seen of Indian activity, not the size of the village but the activity east of the river. You recall from your recent visit that from the top of Battle Ridge in the Calhoun Hill vicinity you cannot see diddly squat of what is going on in the Ford B area, as most of it is masked by Greasy Grass Ridge.
The purpose of the movement to Ford D was most likely a recon and seizure of an attack position for the reassembled regiment minus. That makes the most sense to me, but the actual intent is unknown, and will remain so.
Now my reasoning. Keeping in mind what Marshall says in Tactical Wisdom #20 - "The approach march should bring the troops into their assigned zone, opposite and close to their attack objective" - it makes sense to bring those four companies forward to seize the area around Cemetery Ridge, (as the attack position itself), and await reinforcements before attacking. The swale area behind him is an excellent position for the trains during that attack.
I do not believe in my wildest dreams that Custer would attack with four companies. Not a chance. He went to West Point, so I believe he would at least be expected to count.
So, if your assumption is correct and Company L sent for help, the only way I can see Custer only sending two back, is that holding that Cemetery Ridge position was critical to his future plans. Then if that is correct, (my assumption) his non-recoverable mistake was staying there too long, and not adapting to the situation thrust upon him.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 1, 2016 2:26:04 GMT
I wonder QC if having sent C and I back to help (retrieve?) L Custer decided to push on as a reconnaissance in force to gain intelligence before regrouping at Cemetery to attack. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Jun 1, 2016 3:14:17 GMT
Where does Benteen fit into the plan? Reno? A puzzle isn't solved until all the pieces are in the right places.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2016 4:40:54 GMT
Don't know Mac. I think that would depend upon where Custer was when C and I were detached. If this happened I would expect the head of the column to be around Cemetery Ridge anyway. I suspect he stopped short of the ford. Always said that I see no reason for feet wet. If you can't act upon what your eyes tell you from several hundred meters away from the ford(s), getting close is not going to help a bit.
Beth: Benteen had already been sent for, and as unrealistic as we all know the prospects of him showing up in a timely manner were, it does seem that and offensive move depended upon his arrival. It does to me anyway.
If that were not the case, and Custer was hell bent on attacking with what he had, why leave a stationary rear guard. Have a rear guard certainly but one close on the column.
There are things that tell us details about what people were thinking, but in order to get to them you have to use the process of elimination.
Reno, as far as Custer was concerned, was, what is the expression, hung out to dry. To Custer Reno had served his purpose. Were he to be flung into headlong retreat as far back as Fort Lincoln that would suit Custer's purposes just fine. They were expendable, and I do not believe he gave the matter a moment 's thought. Of course when he made that decision to hang Reno out, he had no earthly idea he was up against the odds present. He was still thinking several small separated villages, I'd wager.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 1, 2016 9:36:30 GMT
Well I will relent and say that it wasn't an all out attack, but the reason he went north was to coral the escapees, if he guessed right and saw that the Indian fighting strength had converged on Reno and the old folks, women and kids were making a break for it at the opposite end then he simply couldn't let this happen, all he needed was the mere presence of troopers at this location and hopefully this would force them all back south, that would allow him time to bring up reserves and bag the lot.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2016 11:42:19 GMT
He did not have the combat power of a big enough bag.
Not saying your wrong even though I cringe at the thought of soldiers in the United States Army being reduced to the lowly status of garden variety kidnappers, but if that was his intention, pie in the sky overestimation of his capabilities is a complete understatement.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 1, 2016 11:46:04 GMT
You have to put yourself in Custer’s position as there are accounts knocking about that around a hundred or so Indians were seen near the Reno hill location now this was before he moved over the bluffs, now where these a threat to Reno’s flank? Prior to this Custer had received conflicting reports that the Indians were running, only to hear that they were coming out to meet Reno, Gerrard reported this to Lt. Cook and later Reno sent two messengers with the same reports.
So Custer could have been facing a threat to his front and another to his flank, which may have altered his course of action and once he cleared the flank (or these Indians vanished), then that may have inadvertently place him on the bluffs overlooking Reno and his first view of the village.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2016 13:01:09 GMT
Good questions.
Remember though Custer sent Reno in with three companies, sight unseen. A lot had transpired in the hour or so since he did that. He now knew the full extent of the village, and I presume he could count. That to me is a very big difference.
The only thing I can say Matt about Custer's expectation of Benteen's arrival is that Custer thought Benteen must be equipped with a very early model of the Starship Enterprise's transporter.
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Post by Beth on Jun 1, 2016 18:25:16 GMT
The only thing I can say Matt about Custer's expectation of Benteen's arrival is that Custer thought Benteen must be equipped with a very early model of the Starship Enterprise's transporter. Or a whole lot of wishful thinking. Or perhaps a lack of a good watch.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 1, 2016 18:46:12 GMT
At the Washita Custer purposely took 53 women and kids as prisoners, which he thought would allow him to escape, he placed them on captured pony’s and dispersed them among his men to act as a human shields.
Just before the attack on Washita, one of Custer’s officer’s said to him;
“General, suppose we find more Indians there than we can handle” And Custer replied ”All I am afraid of is we won’t find half enough”
So all in all, Custer had no qualms about capturing non-coms and Indian numbers never phased him.
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Post by Beth on Jun 1, 2016 18:57:52 GMT
Custer wouldn't have viewed NA women and children as civvies.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 1, 2016 19:01:09 GMT
Duly noted Beth and amended.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 1, 2016 19:08:52 GMT
Trouble is though, if this was his intention and he managed to get his hands on a large enough group of non-coms, then this may allow him and his immediate group to escape, but the fate of Calhoun, Reno and the rest would still be in jeopardy.
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