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Post by Admin1 on Dec 22, 2015 0:39:48 GMT
I moved the LBH summer trip discussion to it's own thread in after action reports to prevent too much thread drift.
Will--let me know what you want for either a thread or topic and where you would like it and I will gladly create it. I look forward to the conversation.
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Post by Beth on Dec 22, 2015 0:46:42 GMT
The trip conversation is here link
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 22, 2015 11:36:56 GMT
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Dec 30, 2015 7:36:45 GMT
The position of the firing from LNC ridge area suggests that there was a group (Keogh perhaps commanding) that was covering the rest as they moved through or down MTC. If they went all the way to the river then they would have ridden well beyond the cover available from LNC. I concede it a possibility but would Custer ride beyond his cover? Does this suggest that accounts that they got no closer than half a mile from the ford match better with the known archaeology? Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 30, 2015 12:20:44 GMT
Here are a few more accounts of Custer’s moves, and not towards ford B. Respects Nothing: Custer came down on the top of that ridge northeast of Water Rat Creek (MTC), he did not come to the river or directly attempt to, he came over from the ridge to Calhoun Hill were the battle began. The soldiers came up to Calhoun Hill diagonally from the east and the Indians came diagonally from the river crossing. Standing Bear: Custer came down from the ridge across the creek, the second or rear ridge from the river, he made no known attempts to reach the river to cross. He went right up to Calhoun Hill and disposed his forces along the top of the ridge to Custer Hill. Even Sitting Bull said that they came from the ridge line and not down MTC Mac this may give you an idea of the amount of firing that could have took place, but some of this could have been from a later date; BTW: Look at the position of C Company, I remember saying earlier on the thread that Custer took three companies and this third company would have been C, as that would be the logical choice with Tom Custer being present with the HQ. Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 1, 2016 17:04:23 GMT
A fine and noble effort on the black board Colt. There cannot be too many + signs behind your A for effort. And to Tom credit goes as well for picking up the conversation in view of stimulation.
Apologies to Luke.
"And there were in the fields abiding, shepherds, tending their sheep" Why that is in lambing season, springtime. not four days removed from the shortest day of the year in the Northern Hemisphere, and likely one of the coldest, moonlight sparkling on the snow that covers the ground. Then there is that matter of Wise Men from the East following that pesky star, who show up before breakfast in most abbreviated versions, before the Kid gets his first diaper change. We are told Mary pondered these things in Her heart. Might be that writing these things down at the time would be of a heck of a lot more benefit to the historian, than pondering.
A beautiful story, the greatest ever told, simple, direct, inspiring, lovely, and cherished. It is only a story for the faithful though, not for the historian, for few of the details are true, or could be true.
For the faithful with an open mind we can see how the story can exist, and the details still be discussed, nit picked, modified, and recognize the evolution of the event itself. For instance moving the time from the spring to the depth of winter. It is a story of hope, and when do we need that hope the most, in the dead of winter of course. Hope and springtime don't go together, the possibilities have already shown themselves.
The JSIT narrative to me is something like taking the beautiful story of Christmas and tearing the accepted story apart to determine truth in details, without changing the basic message.
To others though the JSIT narrative is like moving the electric lighted Christmas Tree from the corner of the stable, wearing Bermuda shorts on 25 December, and no whiskey in the eggnog. It destroys their visions of what they think it should be, what they hold dear. That is not scholarship.
Now we will find out Colt and Tom if anyone reads us here, because the gauntlet has been thrown down.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 1, 2016 18:23:22 GMT
Well I don’t mean to stand on anyone’s toes but I cannot say for certain how Custer got to the ridges, he must have been on the bluffs to be able to view the valley. Cedar coulee looks like the favourite location for any move, but I don’t know because I think that once the attack on the village began then the surprize element had gone, so it makes sense to keep to any high ground and avoid any drainages.
I do think that Custer was initially moving blind and he paused on the ridge line and viewed the area before making his next move, this could have been the time when he ordered any firing but one or two of his companies.
Once he saw the high ground ahead he went for it and probably regrouped in the swale area, but I know that this is only conjecture on my part but it does hold water.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 1, 2016 18:25:50 GMT
Chuck, Fear of failure is a very scary thing, fear of change is even worse. It's not broke why fix it. We have always done it that way. The Baker Battlefield is just like Reno's position and Baker won. If someone says something enough, it must be true. I could make a whole page of these, won't waste everyone's time.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jan 1, 2016 18:49:54 GMT
And Tom, for all the trouble you and Colt went to, providing firm reasoning for the reexamination of the story, using the JSIT narrative as a starting place to find what fits, and perhaps what does not, your first response was - If it ain't in my book it did not happen.
To me the JSIT narrative does not suggest that there was a north south battle flow, although the pieces may be interpreted that way. The flow was south to north for that is the direction of march. We don't know which pocket of troops were the last to fall though, and making the assumption that it must have been Custer's grouping on LSH vice some mob in the general CH/swale area is both assumptive and presumptive. Concurrent engagement at both ends of the ridge line do not effect battle flow. The damned thing stopped flowing once Custer was stopped. He came from the south and was stopped in the north. From that point on it was a Sea Biscuit - War Admiral race to the finish line of destruction, and in that one War Admiral could have easily beaten Sea Biscuit.
When the answer you or anyone is given is all about ME and I, and not about possibilities and common sense, then answers should be looked for elsewhere.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 2, 2016 0:20:17 GMT
My statement regarding his response is, which you have not read yet says it is not over until I say it is over. He has said twice he would limit his interjections. Want to buy a bridge? Debate is good. You should jump in.
Get rid of the bug, and enjoy my weakness in an argument!
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Post by Beth on Jan 2, 2016 0:25:32 GMT
Are you guys trying to start a turf war?
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 2, 2016 1:42:40 GMT
No Mam!
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Post by quincannon on Jan 2, 2016 1:54:58 GMT
I for one will not post over on the black board, even though I have been set free. I have no use for the no moderation policy, that lets things get so far out of hand that it becomes intolerable, and much prefer this format and these people. For me that environment is both hostile and toxic.
If anyone has been following the JSIT threads on both boards though you can readily see the difference between them. Here, we throw dogma out of the window in search of truth. There any attempt to do likewise is met by a stone wall. Damned sick and tired of stone walls myself, as are several others. I don't like anyone's LBH gospel being force fed through a straw, and that is all Tom, Colt, and Ian are getting so far. If everyone thinks alike there are a hell of a lot of people not thinking.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 2, 2016 2:14:15 GMT
Alas Tom, our conversation was cut short, but in error. I interpreted it as mess call, when it was a call to help clean up a mess. Such is life.
On battle flow. Imagine battle flow as a incoming tide coming in strongly from the sea, until it reaches the high water mark, at which time it is forced back by its own diminished impotence.
What we discussed and you posted on the black board, is that mark of high water being reached at or near Ford D then receding upon itself. The direction of battle flow is still with the incoming tide, until impact takes hold and the tide either rolls around the obstacle, or is forced into receding upon itself. I do not think it is fair to say then that you can only take the aftermath of impact and call it a north to south.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 2, 2016 12:29:10 GMT
I see no reason why there must be a one way flow. I like the tide metaphor. I am intrigued by colt's explanation of the way C could end up where they are and need to consider it further. Given the position of Smith's body let me float the idea that Smith was hit at Ford D and a pause on Cemmetery may be a stop to allow him to get some medical treatment. Possible? Cheers
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