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Post by yanmacca on Oct 19, 2015 19:12:40 GMT
I agree Colt, plus Gibbons column was less than 400 strong and these were all infantry, so these could be avoided once deployed. thus rendering them useless as a static blocking force so it was down to Terry and Crook, Crook kept his force together while Terry detached the 7th to act alone, leaving him with five Infantry companies and a Gatling gun detachment.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 19, 2015 19:52:13 GMT
My impression has always been in terms of force structure allocated to mission, that the army looked upon this as just another constabulary type operation, where they were only willing to allocate the minimum structure to the mission.
I go back to my statement that they did not take this seriously.
After Custer got whacked they moved heaven and earth to bring in more structure and resources. If they could do that in the aftermath why could they not do that at the beginning when the allocation of the proper amount of resources would have made a decisive impact in May-June-July?
For those, primarily elsewhere that insist that combined arms was not necessary and that cavalry alone was the way to fight Indians I would pose the following question.
How mobile, how fast, was cavalry? Answer: Only as fast and as mobile as its logistical train.
How mobile, how fast was Infantry? Answer: Only as fast and as mobile as its logistical train.
Now if the logistical train was propelled equally in both Infantry and cavalry columns, you can see that cavalry only is a false argument.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
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Post by colt45 on Oct 19, 2015 21:43:20 GMT
I agree, Chuck. I think the army saw this whole thing as just a walk in the park. All they had to do was show up, kill a few, burn some tepees, put on the grand show, and all would be well.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 19, 2015 22:40:37 GMT
I would think that the most fundamental of mistakes that can be made by either soldier or police officer is to think that the upcoming tour is going to be a walk in the park.
If you do not have your game face on and make the assumption that even the easy is hard, then you are going to get killed.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 20, 2015 11:26:42 GMT
To return to the start of the thread. Custer paused on Cemetery which has always suggested to me he was waiting for Keogh to join him. This would suggest that Keogh was to come on at some particular time, not necessarily when Benteen arrived; as they could not be sure he would arrive. IF this is the case it would argue that Custer felt he could do the job with the men he had. The post above by QC then may be relevant to the mindest. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2015 12:24:20 GMT
If Keogh was stationed to bring forward any support then why use three companies? I suppose the ford below (B) would be an obvious concern so it needed covering, so L company in skirmish order was detailed for that, now that leaves another company to bring forward any supporting units which would be the job of I company.
Now why did Custer think that three companies were needed for this mission, I have given the roles played by L & I, but what about C company, why did he leave them behind, did he see another threat developing from another crossing? Or was he just being cautious. This is a bone of contention with me, if he had took C company along with him then this would have taken his combat strength to 120+, which would have more clout, plus C company’s commander was also in the battalion.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2015 12:41:14 GMT
Combined arms could have been used successfully at the BLBH, the Infantry could have been used to draw out the warriors in the same way Reno did, Infantry would be better suited to standing in formation and shooting it out, they also had no horses to worry about and if they were in regimental strength then they could change formation to deal with any out flanking moves.
This would leave the village vulnerable to cavalry attack as hopefully the warriors in the valley would not be able to bully the Infantry as they did Reno’s understrength battalion and this would not allow them the luxury of being able to break off the valley attack to save their circles from attack, if they did and the majority did switch locations then the Infantry could advance.
I found a breakdown of the US 22nd Infantry regiment circa 1874, and the Infantry too had small companies, they also had only ten companies compared to the twelve in a cavalry regiment;
RHQ: 29 A: 60 B: 42 C: 43 D: 47 E: 49 F: 48 G: 46 H: 46 I: 50 K: 34 Musicians: 4 Total: 498
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2015 15:55:44 GMT
How Infantry could have been used at LBH is restricted only by the imagination of the commander.
U S Infantry did only have ten companies and that would continue until late in the century, when Infantry regiments like the cavalry were organized into structured battalions and squadrons. I have the dates of that addition of two companies somewhere but not close at hand. As I recall the full strength of the 10 company Infantry regiment was on the order of a thousand. Of course they were not authorized that degree of fill in peace time, and fro the looks of those figures were well below authorized strength as well.
As a refresher for those that don't know or might have forgotten about strength levels
Required strength is what the table of organization says you need in wartime. Authorized strength is the level that Congress will fund in peacetime. On hand strength is what you have at this morning's first formation.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 20, 2015 21:21:29 GMT
If Keogh was stationed to bring forward any support then why use three companies? I suppose the ford below (B) would be an obvious concern so it needed covering, so L company in skirmish order was detailed for that, now that leaves another company to bring forward any supporting units which would be the job of I company. Now why did Custer think that three companies were needed for this mission, I have given the roles played by L & I, but what about C company, why did he leave them behind, did he see another threat developing from another crossing? Or was he just being cautious. This is a bone of contention with me, if he had took C company along with him then this would have taken his combat strength to 120+, which would have more clout, plus C company’s commander was also in the battalion. Yan. Maybe the answer is not what was left but what was taken. It would imply that Custer was making a recon in force to Ford D rather than attacking. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 21, 2015 17:47:45 GMT
Hi Mac, whatever the reason it looks like he thought he had time to burn, as there may have been three things going on his mind, support is forth coming, the Keogh position is stable and were is the northern edge of this village.
Yan.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 21, 2015 21:24:40 GMT
That's the thing Ian...he thought....as opposed to he knew. He had put himself in a position where he could not know much at all about what was happening to his command. Cheers
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Oct 21, 2015 21:49:44 GMT
If Keogh was stationed to bring forward any support then why use three companies? I suppose the ford below (B) would be an obvious concern so it needed covering, so L company in skirmish order was detailed for that, now that leaves another company to bring forward any supporting units which would be the job of I company. Now why did Custer think that three companies were needed for this mission, I have given the roles played by L & I, but what about C company, why did he leave them behind, did he see another threat developing from another crossing? Or was he just being cautious. This is a bone of contention with me, if he had took C company along with him then this would have taken his combat strength to 120+, which would have more clout, plus C company’s commander was also in the battalion. Yan. Maybe the answer is not what was left but what was taken. It would imply that Custer was making a recon in force to Ford D rather than attacking. Cheers Mac, Good observation about what was left behind. 3 companies left behind indicate the need to cover the area they just traversed, plus look for Benteen. With only 2 companys with him, all Custer could really do was a recon in force. He certainly didn't have the strength to launch an assault across the river without Keogh's companies.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 21, 2015 22:15:09 GMT
Custer in many ways reminds me of the little boy who comes in the house on a rainy day and tracks mud all over the living room carpet on his route to the kitchen to get ice cream from the freezer. He gives no thought to the cleaning up the mud he tracked in the house, only the ice cream at the end of his personal rainbow.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 21, 2015 22:50:16 GMT
The suggestion often is that Custer was intent on crossing and taking hostages but certainly at the point he was at with two companies he was not going to be able to do that. In fact I wonder even with five companies if he could cross the river successfully. Opinions? Gotta go. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Oct 21, 2015 23:30:31 GMT
Custer in many ways reminds me of the little boy who comes in the house on a rainy day and tracks mud all over the living room carpet on his route to the kitchen to get ice cream from the freezer. He gives no thought to the cleaning up the mud he tracked in the house, only the ice cream at the end of his personal rainbow. You forgot to add that when the mess is pointed out he would say "I didn't do all of that!"
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