|
Post by quincannon on Dec 22, 2022 22:38:42 GMT
I like your questions Elwood. Really like them. It makes me wonder why the so called experts did not, are not, and will not ask these same questions. Are they afraid that their answers will burst their LBH balloon. Seems like that might be the case.
What transpired in the northern sector of the battle was not exactly defensive, nor was it exactly an offensive operation. It was more an "in between" a disputing possession of terrain, conducted, in the main, by small scale maneuver. I believe even those that cling to the conventional theory of the battle will agree with that. What we see then, as indicated by the marker clusters, are the finality of that maneuver, the places in the battle space where the various companies were fixed and destroyed by the opposition.
Now in defensive, offensive, and disputing operations, the reserve is part of the force that is an essential ingredient. In the offense the reserve exploits gain, while in defense the reserve protects the withdrawal if that becomes necessary, or counterattacks to restore the primary battle position. In disputing operations the reserve can be called upon to do both. In any case though the reserve is placed in a position where it can protect itself. All God's children can also agree that where Company I was found did not meet that most basic requirement. So, if the experts say that Company I was in reserve why, as Ian points out, were they in a position where they could not protect themselves, given they had an experienced company commander? The only legitimate answer anyone can offer then is that they were not in reserve. So, there must be another answer.
The best of those answers that I can come up with is that they were not sitting in that hole like a chicken ready to be plucked as most "experts" have it, but rather in motion over that terrain when they were surrounded, stopped, fixed, and eventually overrun. No one would ever choose to stop and fight there, so the choice must have been made for them.
Throughout these many years on this board and others, I have gone into discussions like these with the idea that none of these decision making guys are going to do what they know to be wrong. That is not to say mistakes were not made, but it is hard for me to see that any of these people are going to make small unit tactical mistakes that are so obviously mistakes. You don't fight on low ground when you can fight on high. You don't go down only to have to come up again. You don't fight for the same dirt twice. You do not divide if there is no requirement to divide. You don't use a hundred pairs of eyes when one pair does the job. You do not stay when it is time to go. Most of all you know the enemy always has a vote, no matter what your vote is.
Damned good question old son, and Ian has the most probable answer to it.
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on Dec 23, 2022 0:44:30 GMT
Thank both of you for your answers/responses. Makes sense. You read these authors saying that this co. and that co. were being held in reserve, then practically the next minute they're getting cut to pieces. Doesn't add up. I'm new to these boards but I have spent time reading many of these extensive threads here. Lots of info to take in. I enjoy the ideas being bounced off each other.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 23, 2022 1:32:12 GMT
Bouncing is what we do best.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Dec 23, 2022 7:19:09 GMT
Elwood that was one of the things that showed me that the whole reserve etc stuff did not work. My take now...I am going full throttle here... Keogh was moving towards Calhoun Hill when Sgt Bobo came back to him from Company C (Company C had just begun to deploy to Finley Finkle Ridge). Keogh stopped to talk to Bobo. Bobo was a messenger to tell Keogh the situation ahead on Calhoun Hill. Keogh called his NCO's forward to give them their orders. This is why Keogh is found dead, facing Calhoun Hill, surrounded by Bobo and NCOs. Just as this was happening Crazy Horse emerged from Deep Ravine through the gap just North of the Keogh position. Crazy Horse charged across between Keogh and Last Stand Hill. He then came back the other way. Crazy Horse brought warriors raining down from both sides on Company I and they were swiftly killed. These movements are in the accounts of the battle when they are carefully read. It also makes tactical sense!
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on Dec 23, 2022 16:23:21 GMT
My take now...I am going full throttle here... Keogh was moving towards Calhoun Hill when Sgt Bobo came back to him from Company C (Company C had just begun to deploy to Finley Finkle Ridge). Keogh stopped to talk to Bobo. Bobo was a messenger to tell Keogh the situation ahead on Calhoun Hill. Keogh called his NCO's forward to give them their orders. This is why Keogh is found dead, facing Calhoun Hill, surrounded by Bobo and NCOs. Just as this was happening Crazy Horse emerged from Deep Ravine through the gap just North of the Keogh position. Crazy Horse charged across between Keogh and Last Stand Hill. He then came back the other way. Crazy Horse brought warriors raining down from both sides on Company I and they were swiftly killed. That does make sense. Keogh moving east of BR to conceal his co. On his way to assist troops at Calhoun Hill. Then getting caught there from both sides. I suppose some authors/researchers instead of admitting, "I really don't know what the hell was going on", say Comp. such and such was being held in reserve. Its safe but doesn't require a lot of thinking. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 23, 2022 17:25:34 GMT
None of the "experts" are willing to admit that they do not know what the hell went on. If they did, they would not be considered "experts" and to them that is a fate worse than death itself.
Occam's Razor old son. Simple answers are usually the most probable answers. So, to address what you said directly Elwood, yes, it is tactically sound for Company I to move on the far (east) side of Battle Ridge, to mask his movements from the primary area of threat which is west of the ridge. That gap Mac mentioned is no longer there, filled in when the road was built, but the real old maps show it, and I completely buy Mac's view of this particular part of the battle.
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on Dec 24, 2022 13:45:46 GMT
That gap Mac mentioned is no longer there, filled in when the road was built, but the real of maps show it, and I completely buy Mac's view of this particular part of the battle. So there was actually a cut or low spot in the ridge? When he mentioned “gap” I simply thought he was referring to the large space between Co. I and E/F, whoever was next up north on the ridge. Just learned something. Thanks
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 24, 2022 19:32:27 GMT
Fred has made note of the gap in his book, I think Fred was the person who came up with this gap as all the new maps only show the modified crest of battle ridge which was graded for the new road.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 25, 2022 6:16:59 GMT
Well Christmas has come once again. Again, we are reminded that good will ultimately triumph over evil. The familiar story of the birth, the babe lying in the manger. The angels announcing the coming to the world through the shepherds, that the world would never be the same. All this strikes me each year, but this year, for some reason as the lights went out and the familiar strains of Silent Night filled the candle lit church, I told my ushers to open all the doors. They looked at me as if I had gone round the bend for it was about 10 degrees outside, but they did. I said, It's Christmas, let everyone outside hear us sing and as Silent Night transitioned to Joy To The World, Colorado Springs heard us sing. Merry Christmas to all, and Joy to the world.
|
|
|
Post by rollingthunder on Dec 25, 2022 13:10:14 GMT
I know it’s hard to picture events from these line drawings but if you look at the bottom image then you will see gaps in the Keogh sector markers, I have highlighted these gaps in red, now if you put them in line with the image I posted the other day, then you will see that they are very similar, so I have put them together and highlighted in red on both images, see what you think; View AttachmentI didn't know this thread. Good job Ian with the maps. Very enlightening. I take this opportunity to wish Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone
|
|
|
Post by rollingthunder on Dec 25, 2022 13:50:49 GMT
I like your questions Elwood. Really like them. It makes me wonder why the so called experts did not, are not, and will not ask these same questions. Are they afraid that their answers will burst their LBH balloon. Seems like that might be the case. The best of those answers that I can come up with is that they were not sitting in that hole like a chicken ready to be plucked as most "experts" have it, but rather in motion over that terrain when they were surrounded, stopped, fixed, and eventually overrun. No one would ever choose to stop and fight there, so the choice must have been made for them. Throughout these many years on this board and others, I have gone into discussions like these with the idea that none of these decision making guys are going to do what they know to be wrong. That is not to say mistakes were not made, but it is hard for me to see that any of these people are going to make small unit tactical mistakes that are so obviously mistakes. You don't fight on low ground when you can fight on high. You don't go down only to have to come up again. You don't fight for the same dirt twice. You do not divide if there is no requirement to divide. You don't use a hundred pairs of eyes when one pair does the job. You do not stay when it is time to go. Most of all you know the enemy always has a vote, no matter what your vote is. Damned good question old son, and Ian has the most probable answer to it. Just perfect. Simple, clear and coherent answers from a professional who understands what he sees.
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on Dec 25, 2022 15:54:58 GMT
Merry Christmas to all, and Joy to the world. Back to you Sir! Merry Christmas to all around these parts!
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 25, 2022 19:53:58 GMT
Thank you Elwood. QC, that sounds like a magical scene, if every holy house in every faith did such a thing on the same day once a year, then it would go along way to bring people together.
Ian
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 25, 2022 20:45:41 GMT
It was a bit magical, but isn't Christmas itself a bit magical. Everyone needs to realize that we all have more in common than those things that may divide us. When that happens, and it will, the world will be a better place.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 26, 2022 15:36:13 GMT
I have been flicking through Gordon Harpers book today, I find boxing day a very slow and relaxing day until the evening, as we always get invited to a house party
Harper says that C Company came down from battle ridge with revolvers blazing, which forced the Indians back, but many more lay in wait out of sight on both of his flanks. He then states that once the revolvers were empty Harrington ordered a skirmish line and that this line was formed just southwest of FFR, the skirmish line traded shots with Indians on greasy grass ridge, it was then that a rush was made by the Indians with hand held weapons, the soldiers only managed to fire a few carbine rounds before they lost their horses (it was here that Harper says the women scared the horses by waving blankets), Harringtons men (C Company had a large proportion of raw recruits then any other company) then got engaged in hand to hand fighting which caused them to panic and flee, Sgts Bobo, Finkle and Finley still had their horses and took off, Bobo went straight to Keogh and the other two went to FFR in a vain attempt to rally the men, both got killed yards from each other. Harrington who also had his horse, charged the oncoming Indians and was engulfed by them.
Harper does provide sources to his story, but not on every event, unless I have missed them, so I wonder if he has embelished these accounts with some of his own thoughts. It is still a good book mind, and it is worth a read.
Ian
|
|