Keogh sector

[mac]

Keogh and Company I are a long way north of Companies C and L. Certainly this position reflects Montrose's analysis that Keogh was looking for Benteen.
Beyond that the markers simply had the look of bunching, rather than any other significance, to me. Certainly I believe they were dismounted.
As I posted on the Calhoun thread, once C moves down towards GG ridge these 3 companies are effectively isolated in close proximity to the enemy. Lame White man assaults C and in the process L is disrupted allowing Gall et al to make an assault from the south. Soon Crazy Horse comes in to block the north and anyone left in the Keogh sector falls, bunched, halfway between Battle Ridge and the drainage to the east.
That is how it looks to me.
I cannot understand how experienced officers or even inexperienced ones for that matter, got themselves in these positions. Three companies out of support and dealing with large scale infiltration from a huge village.
As soon as they saw the terrain and the infiltration they should have been heading north for Custer and an exit stage right.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Mac I agree with you entirely, this was a perfect place for one thing and that was to view what was going on below and these officers should have seen the dangers from the outset, the initial foray across the river would probably be light in numbers and I would guess that they used many crossing points, some of these would be out of view because of the tree line and bluffs, but as soon as the Indians moved up through deep coulee and occupied the greasy grass area then this was time to pull out as it should have been clear that this position would soon become isolated and surrounded.

Yan.

[Beth]

I wonder if the problem was, it was sort of like when you have a leaky pipe. You see, drip, drip, drip until things build up, the pipe finally totally lets loose and you have a flood. If they were dealing with small firefights perhaps all over the field, the might not have seen what was going on beyond their immediate focus. Often times when I read about events it seems to me that people never looked at what was going on beyond the range of their carbines.

[mac]

There is perhaps an element of that Beth but there business is battle and they should have been able to judge reasonably well what kind of resistance was building, especially after L were forced up Calhoun Hill by the firing from Henryville.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

If the Indians fought in small bands then I wonder if they realised that they were ring fencing the soldiers, it was possible due to the nature of the terrain that not all of the bands would have had a view of each other and some would have crossed at different points, what I mean is that they would not be co-ordinated like a professional army with one company to move around one flank with another holding the front whilst a third encroached around the other flank.

So giving that these bands were operation independently and probably blind of each other’s movements would probably give way to a lot of cautiousness especially in the early stages and if C company broke then this was the opening they needed to rush and seize the initiative.

Yan.

[Beth]

Oct 6, 2015 11:12:16 GMT mac said:

There is perhaps an element of that Beth but there business is battle and they should have been able to judge reasonably well what kind of resistance was building, especially after L were forced up Calhoun Hill by the firing from Henryville.
Cheers

It is a battle, but Custer's men are exhausted, little food and water, and in 100 degree weather.  All of those things are going to have a factor on their ability to function.  Often times when we are talking about LBH I think people forget to factor in what the possibilities of the physical condition of those men were.

[yanmacca]

Another thing that also springs to mind is the notion that at one stage during the fighting in the Keogh sector there would have been a point that all three companies would have no visual of each other, if Keogh/I company were over on the east side they would be out of sight of Calhoun/L company and if Harrington/C company was down in Calhoun coulee then he would not be able to see either of them, so at this point it was down to each company commander to act alone and without support.

I also wouldn’t mind touching on the subject of the Indians armed with repeating rifles, now some reports say that there was around 350 of these weapons in Indian hands, but would they have made much an impact on events? Let’s face it your average warrior could not simply nip to the shop and buy rounds for these weapons so I don’t think that any of them would have that much ammo, plus we don’t know if any of these repeaters were used at the Rosebud battle, if so then surly they could not make up the expenditure from this fight, so I would expect that if there were 350-400 repeaters in use then their ammo must have been low, and you could expend a lot of bullets in a short time especially in the heat of battle with the weapon being in untrained hands.

Yan.

[mac]

I am still contemplating this part of the action. I am wondering about the timing of the various parts and if Keogh was "dragged" north by the presence of the gap rather than moved there as an initial position.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Any incursions towards the gap or up the channel to Keogh's eastern flank must have came in a time frame, and this period had to be when Custer had no visual of the area between the two battalions, as he should have seen any movement from the ravines to battle ridge, again the same could said about the natural highway that ran down Keogh's left flank, this I reckon was used by Custer to get to the northern fords and if this was used by the Indians then they would have ran head long into each other.

Yan.

[mac]

True Ian there would be a time where Custer has slipped away before the warrior incursions began. I suppose it is possible that Custer did not delay and the movement had been planned prior to the excursion to Ford B.
Until the gap is recognised I can see no necessity for Keogh to move so far north of the rest of his command.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

No one can be 100% sure were C company was positioned, but if it was were we think is was then would this this spot also cover that gap?, I am only speculating here Mac as you have recently visited the area and have a good idea of were the gap would be in relation to were we think C company was, so would you think that they were in a position to spot any infiltration?

If so then they would have left a void when the swooped down to Calhoun coulee, and this would have opened the back gate for any quick thinking Indians to move around Keogh's rear.

All battles are determined by a bit of luck and unforeseen circumstances, and lady luck could have been on the Indians side that afternoon, imagine just at the right moment, Custer was out of sight, C company had just moved off its perch and into a coulee of death and Crazy Horse turns up with a mounted contingent and finds an open path to his enemies rear.

Yan.

[deadwoodgultch]

Yan, if I am not mistaken the gap was slightly north of the loop in the road. The road bed would have filled the gap yet you can still get a pretty good idea of its location, it looks like a deepening swale to the west of the road. It looks as though Fred removed the photo from the other board. I at one point referred to it in early Summer.

Regards,
Tom

[mac]

The gap is to the north, further than I thought. C would be closer to L and I would be nearer the gap. My thought is they were moved further north than they wanted to be by the presence of the gap. This movement separates them from Calhoun Hill. Once C made their move it seems quite possible to me at some point that the three of them had no visual contact. That is why I tend to think of them as isolated and out of support. Remembering that the mayhem starts with hand to hand fighting that would not be particularly noisy.
The first sign of the problem may be men moving into sight fleeing warriors. 
Same for Custer perhaps.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Most of the old maps you look at of battle ridge have two or three distinct gaps, I wonder if they filled in all of them when the tour road was graded, have a shufty at this as I have named both the gaps closest to the Keogh sector;

[mac]

There is no doubt the ridge has been flattened by road building. Standard method is to flatten crests to fill dips and minimise movment of earth. This is a credible map. Gap B is the gap that is deepest and most apparent today and is north of the Keogh sector. It is amazing that it has not been noted before as it is very obvious especially to anyone with training related to terrain.
My feeling is that the horses and company I were originally closer to Gap A and that they were drawn north by the penetration of the ridge through Gap B.
The "when" of this is the interesting question.
The markers suggest to me that I were on foot and were caught by the movement through the gap and mainly trapped where they fell.
Cheers