Keogh sector

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac,

I think you are probably right about the northern most gap. I originally thought the southern gap and felt company I was pushed north toward LSH. I thought they were fighting until they broke and the survivors then rushed toward Custer. Either way they were in an indefensible position.

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

Some of the Indian accounts say that the hardest fighting was around this sector, now I don’t know if they meant the skirmish line on Calhoun hill or Keogh’s I company defending the gap, but I would like to think that when the survivors from both C and L reached Keogh’s position, they initially assembled and made a fist of it, and it was here were the hardest fighting occurred.

Also if they were attacked through this gap then all the men from three companies would be cut off from LSH, but as the image below shows, there is a distinct line of markers almost running to LSH, now either these men saw Custer on the high ground and forced a channel through the Indian lines (similar to Reno) or the way was still clear and they simply hot footed it to the ridge line with Warriors in hot pursuit, either way they were chopped down in a straight line as they ran.

[quincannon]

That map Ian posted shows three distinct gaps in the ridge line. The top two roughly correspond with the course of both arms of the Y that Deep Ravine has.

The gap, Fred's Gap is the center one

The bottom one is probably where Calhoun Coulee once met the top of the ridge just behind the Calhoun hilltop itself.

I tend to think that it was not the center gap that Keogh was interested in primarily, but rather a clear view to the south and the L-N-C Ridge complex. He could have viewed those ridges from further south and a little more east, but that is where the gap comes in. He chose the position he did to both have the view (primary) and watch the gap (secondary)

[Beth]

Oct 29, 2015 14:31:27 GMT yanmacca said:

Some of the Indian accounts say that the hardest fighting was around this sector, now I don’t know if they meant the skirmish line on Calhoun hill or Keogh’s I company defending the gap, but I would like to think that when the survivors from both C and L reached Keogh’s position, they initially assembled and made a fist of it, and it was here were the hardest fighting occurred.

Also if they were attacked through this gap then all the men from three companies would be cut off from LSH, but as the image below shows, there is a distinct line of markers almost running to LSH, now either these men saw Custer on the high ground and forced a channel through the Indian lines (similar to Reno) or the way was still clear and they simply hot footed it to the ridge line with Warriors in hot pursuit, either way they were chopped down in a straight line as they ran.

I would like to point out that the problem with trying to base what might have happened based on the marker locations can be problematic.   The only thing the markers can tell you for certain is that a marker was placed in that location.  It can not tell us if their was a man there defending his ground, or if he was either walking or running in any single direction.  We don't even know for certain if that is the exact place a person died because we know that the bodies were interfered with possibly twice--once by the NA as they gathered whatever items they wanted and again by the burial detail who perhaps had to move bodies to search for possible identification and perhaps based on the stories of the conditions of the battlefield assemble enough 'bits' to account for a person.  Perhaps even while they may have repositioned bodies onto ground that would provide more dirt to use for burial.   I don't believe that any body would have been moved more than a few feet  under the condition they were operating, but you have to consider the possibility that bodies appear to be lined up be cause a burial detail or the NA walked the area and aligned them that way.

I hope that makes sense.

[mac]

A quick couple of things.
It is an a very bad place to try to defend. Warriors can be massed to the east behind the next ridge which makes sense of Crazy Horse crossing through the gap and then returning with even more men from the east. The time between these moves opens a window perhaps for early leaves to head towards LSH. Also anyone mounted may escape north during the hand to hand melee that would ultimately occur.
The line to LSH can be a two way street. Some could be there as a result of fleeing LSH to the south as it falls. I suspect that there would be some open looking ground that way with warriors massed more to the east, north and west.
Lastly the view south is certainly a factor, as I have said before, and the sight lines are difficult to establish. My feeling is the markers are pushed north from where Keogh may have been but that is hardly surprising given what was coming from the north.
Would Company I be split with some nearer the gap and some with Keogh? Seems likely to me.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

I know it’s hard to picture events from these line drawings but if you look at the bottom image then you will see gaps in the Keogh sector markers, I have highlighted these gaps in red, now if you put them in line with the image I posted the other day, then you will see that they are very similar, so I have put them together and highlighted in red on both images, see what you think;

Attachments:

[mac]

Really interesting map Ian! Echoes some thoughts I have had and interesting to contemplate the timing of arrival of warriors through each gap.
Great work!
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Thanks Mac, sorry about the RUWC Final.

Yan.

[mac]

The cup result was not surprising Ian. Actually happy they got to the final.
The original topography of the battle is a fascinating consideration and those drainages are almost certainly crucial in the way it unfolded. Consider too the route up MTC and then around behind Calhoun Hill.
Cheers

[mac]

I think it likely that company I were  dismounted when the assaults came as they had by then seen the need to defend the gap and could only do this on foot. Would Keogh have sent men to the gap itself and if so how many?
Cheers

[Beth]

I keep looking at that insert map and have a couple questions. Since Yates and T. Custer were with GAC--who would have had their command and were their bodies identified and where were they at?

Also other than a few bodies that seem to be out of place between "Smith's command" (Deep Ravine?) and Calhoun's command--it seems like people pretty much died quickly and in place.

[mac]

As you know I am not at home and working on memory. T Custer had Company C I think so Harrington was there and he was not identified.
Further to  my earlier post; I was surprised at how close the next ridge east is to the Keogh position making sense of the accounts that CH went east then back west with reinforcements who were already to the east.
How do these things relate to the marker placements in the Keogh sector?
Cheers

[Beth]

Personally I am so directionally challenged I can't tell east from west on a map insert without a compass rose. (I can't tell right from left either without referring to the red ring on my right hand)

However if you look at the way the markers are indicated it tells a story to me at least of a quick and decisive battle with the losing side having very little time to 'clump in support other than possibly at LHS. Of course another way one could look at LSH is that it was were people fleeing or moving to the right edge of the map and were abruptly stopped.

This may be my own personal 'fancy' but if you just view each mark as debris instead of a body, it looks like the remains left after a tidal wave or storm surge. Perhaps fitting of a sudden and sweeping attack.

[yanmacca]

Mac Concerning Harrington's body, I always thought that the reason for him not being not found was that he was probably wounded and being close to the village he was took there for further retribution, either that or he was so badly cut up that nothing was left of him to be identified from, but as you know two other officers were also missing, Porter and Sturgis, Sturgis like Harrington may have also been close to the village as E company was around the deep ravine area and again could have been singled out because he was an officer and captured rather than being dispatched, but Porter should have been nearly a mile away from the village, but the easiest explanation was that these men were stripped and hacked up, but why they chose these three out of the twelve or so with Custer I don't know.

Beth, this may help you with you bearings, as it contains a compass icon;

[yanmacca]

Oh I nearly forgot, happy birthday Chris old son, I hope you have booked the day off from work and have made arrangements for an enjoyable day with your family.

All the best from Ian and family