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Post by yanmacca on Dec 11, 2015 20:30:23 GMT
My god it works, it must have been a slow connection earlier today as it timed out three times.
I have downloaded the file Beth, thanks.
Yan.
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Post by Beth on Dec 11, 2015 20:33:19 GMT
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Post by Beth on Dec 11, 2015 20:34:12 GMT
I've got it downloaded and posted links so we have access to it in the future.
the pages on the links do enlarge.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 11, 2015 20:46:14 GMT
Looking at the new map posted by Beth, you can see that some of this could make sense, Custer had no interest in ford B or moving down MTC, ford B took him into the center of an empty village and MTC was ripe for ambush, so he keeps to the high ground and finds the north end of the village. No mention of the fight on Calhoun hill though which does raise an eye brow or two because I always thought that it was a safe bet to say that Calhoun hill was a position for a skirmish line followed by a running fight.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 11, 2015 21:14:28 GMT
You are only looking at the Cheyenne foxhole eye view. They took no part in the Ford B episode. Might not have even known about it.
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Post by Beth on Dec 11, 2015 21:29:51 GMT
It illustrates that what you know about the battle all depends on where you were which is why I get uncomfortable reading accounts with the person knowing everything from everywhere.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 12, 2015 12:18:12 GMT
But are we taking the ford B scenario for granted? Who said that they went there, who said that they even went down MTC for that matter, no white man survived to tell just what and where the cavalry moved or did after Martini left, so what do we rely on after that, well finds and Indian accounts, but ford B offers nothing in finds or markers, was MTC full of shod tracks?
There are many accounts that say the soldiers came down a dry coulee and the grey horse soldiers were by the river, but if you look at the possible area of were ford D is then you also see a dry coulee and E company were supposed to be in that sector too.
I have always regarded Custer as an impetuous sort of person, now if the whole five companies did go right across from the ridges through deep coulee and round the back of battle ridge then this would be in accordance with the type of man Custer was, he only had about 185-195 combat personnel (that’s if you take out the HQ staff civilians and medical personnel) so why would he split.
If he wanted to attack the north end of this village then I can see him riding right through from LNC to ford D with everything he had, because what he saw in the valley was a battle raging with little no visibility due to around 150 trooper blasting away and with black powder smoke coming from both sides, tons of dust swirling around by Indians riding in circles stirring up as much dust as they can, he had summoned everything not in contact to get involved and be quick.
If he was repelled at ford D and then moved along the river to cemetery hill then it is a good chance that they were snipped at from the brush that lined the river and Kellogg got hit, in fact the whole scenario of an officer being shot off his horse could also be ford D as these fords and coulees were just like any other to the Indians as the white men choose these location names.
The only problem we have with this scenario is what they did if they were forced not only from ford D but from the western bank of the river, and did they retrograde as a whole or separate units to avoid giving the Indians only one unit to shoot at, as this place could have been alive with Indians taking shots at them, and as they went south they realised that deep coulee and Calhoun coulee were also occupied.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 12, 2015 15:47:11 GMT
There is some inner perversion in me that thinks we should pursue this a lot further.
From a tactical perspective the movement along the ridge lines (L-N-C and BR) to Ford D, avoiding MTC and Ford B has some zing, as a WHIFF. See my comments on WHIFFING on the Reno Troops thread.
The only thing that keeps this from being viable is the final positions of those company clusters. If anyone could find a legitimate reason they were where they were then there is some possibility here.
If we completely disprove the JSIT or we only succeed in validating a portion of it we are ahead of the game.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 12, 2015 15:58:31 GMT
Exactly Chuck, if Custer’s five companies did break into two groups then why couldn’t this happen after the ford D move, one group heads towards LSH and the other (taking casualties along the way, the line of markers along the western edge) goes towards FFR before being deflected towards Calhoun hill. You could even say that the battalion was forced to split.
Now I wouldn’t normally bring things like this up because I don’t want to be regarded as a person who agrees with arrow dodging horses but, I don’t see why there is anything wrong with Custer taking everyone north and dam was going on behind him.
It’s defiantly worth a debate as some posters on other boards have stressed their feelings about the whole command riding down MTC and then being deflected up to LSH.
Yan.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Dec 12, 2015 16:24:44 GMT
JSIT's account has some merit and quite possibly describes the action as seen from the perspective of one that was fighting around ford D. However, his account cannot describe the action around Calhoun Hill, as we know the troops were initially down on the military crest, and were eventually forced to the top by fire from Henryville and Deep Coulee. It also does not account for C companys charge down the coulee toward GGR. Those actions would not have been visible by the actors involved in the ford D action.
Now as that applies to Custer taking all 5 companys to ford D. While that is a possibility, I think it remote due to the way L and C were involved in the battle, and it also doesn't fit with I company appearing to have been caught somewhat flat-footed in the swale area. My take on this is that from the LNC complex, Custer sees that ford B isn't worth messing with, winds up firing at hostiles coming across, then moves all 5 companys over to Calhoun Hill, leaves Calhoun and Harrington behind to guard his rear as he moves to ford D. He has Keogh remain for the purpose of spotting then escorting Benteen to the battle, while he takes E and F to Ford D. I believe the light skirmishing at the ford described by many as ford B was in actuality ford D. This fits with people being hit in that area, the move back toward Cemetery ridge, presumably to wait for the rest of the regiment before attacking, then the movement of E toward Deep Ravine and F back toward LSH.
If this scenario is true, it could explain why Custer waited around Cemetery ridge. It could also explain why E company is found along SSL and Deep Ravine. I think Custer was forced back to LSH about the same time as the fleeing remnants from C, I, and L began coming over the crest of Battle Ridge. Both groups were probably surprised to find each other at that point, as they both probably assumed safety was to be found in the areas occupied by the other. That was probably a real "oh crap" moment. That's when everyone probably realized the party was over and it was time to turn out the lights.
This would also fit with Custer not leaving a battalion commander in Keogh. I think he never created a Keogh battalion, but just dropped companies off where he wanted them with their specific missions. This could account for why there was no apparent central command and control of those 3 companies.
Anyway, that's just my theory.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 12, 2015 16:34:56 GMT
The first question to be addressed then is why did they break into two groups, or what would force the split.
If you can answer how it could not happen then you defeat the theory.
I cannot see why it could not happen at this juncture.
Ford stories from the Indian perspective must be looked upon, keeping one fact in mind. They did not identify the specific ford by the names we know them.
Custer moving north, damning all behind him, might also suggest that his intention for Benteen was to go to Reno.
Not saying that I agree with any of this, but neither do I possess a closed mind, nor do I have a graven in stone model that I must defend, or a book to write.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 12, 2015 16:45:58 GMT
Who is it that gives an account of any action at the ford that clearly identifies it at Ford B, to the exclusion of any other place on this battlefield?
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Dec 12, 2015 17:19:43 GMT
I am not aware of any account that nails down ford B as the place where an officer was wounded, though it is very possible. We know Boyer fired on the village from the bluffs at ford B, and that may be where the "assumption" that Custer reconned ford B and drew fire came from. Again, I don't know this for a fact. It just seems that if we accept JSIT's account of Custer's route, it stands to reason that Custer would have used the LNC ridges, and maybe not even approached ford B. We know Wolf Tooth was on the east side of the river, drawing fire, and Custer could quite possibly seen a buildup coming across at ford B to engage him. It would therefore stand to reason he would drop a company off at Calhoun Hill to protect his rear as he continued moving north.
I think it reasonable he would leave Keogh behind to assist Benteen's arrival while he scouted ahead to find a suitable ford that would allow him to attack from the north. I don't think he thought he was ever in any real danger until the pressure from deep ravine, ford d, and maybe points a little further north, forced him to move back toward Keogh. He probably was unaware of the action occurring in the swale and Calhoun area until he topped LSH and found routed soldiers and tons of Indians.
As you pointed out earlier, many so-called facts about the Custer part of the battle become accepted as facts even though they are based on assumptions, and so we are not really able to nail down anything about the Calhoun area or cemetery ridge fight for certain. I think an attempted crossing at ford B is also an assumed fact, though if there is an account that nails down action at Ford B, I would like to see it as I am not aware of it.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 12, 2015 18:14:43 GMT
There is one thing that I completely disregard, that being that Custer was nailed on Battle Ridge in toto by a mass of Indians streaming across the river at multiple points. This does not withstand the time to travel from river to ridge, and would suggest that the Indians had a clear vision of Custer's route and intentions.
Going down to Ford B makes absolutely no sense tactically. Don't think he would have seen anything there with any clarity from the ridge line, BUT the smoke and dust rising from the B area should have told him something was down there THUS, he had not reached the northern end. A scout or two verifying this would be all that was required, and it certainly would not require or justify the commitment of a two company strength reconnaissance.
I tend to agree that dropping a company off at or near Calhoun Hill would make sense. I also agree about dropping Keogh off in that swale area. Company C, under these revised circumstances is, and remains, a mystery. All we really know is that many from that company were found on F-F Ridge. We assume they came from Battle Ridge, but assumption is all it is. Do we have any Indian tale leading us in that direction to the exclusion of any other possibility. Can't recall any. We hang our hat on Battle Ridge to F-F Ridge via Calhoun Coulee, BECAUSE we know that some must have retreated in the direction of BR, hence we speculate that was from where they came.
In all probability, based upon what is in evidence none of us will ever know for sure.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 12, 2015 18:34:48 GMT
You do get multiply accounts of soldiers charging downhill, we have read in various books that C company charged downhill, then we have E company some say they were forced downhill and finally the big breakout from LSH to deep ravine, now there I have given three different companies moving downhill towards the river but do the Indians accounts give three?
As I said earlier in the eyes of excited and frightened Indians, a group of soldiers charging down a slope is just that a group of soldiers charging down a slope, now we gave them soldiers a group name (C or E company) and the location too (battle ridge to Calhoun coulee or Cemetery to deep ravine). But to the Indians they saw soldiers moving downhill and for all we know this may have happened only once and seeing that bodies were found in deep ravine then this would I presume be the best bet.
If we are going down the leave companies back to defend the rear scenario, then why not have one company on Calhoun hill and one on FFR.
I picked out this particular Indian account because it was explained by Wolftooth and he saw the cavalry advance through these locations and he may have even followed them as they rode.
Yan.
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