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Post by yanmacca on Dec 7, 2015 20:24:39 GMT
I have to commend you Mac for keeping this thread going for so long, not only have you kept the ship on a steady course but ultimately the thread has turned out to be a real success and I myself will look at this portion on the battle in a different light.
The notion of Tom Custer being with his older brother is typical of the way this battle was run, I can I suppose see that Custer may have wanted his sibling to accompany him in the HQ and leave his company under the command of his second, but to omit them totally from his control looks like he didn’t want them getting under his feet, which I find really bad and I wondered just how the men felt.
I could forgive him if the group consisted of HQ-F-C companies with E company sitting back on battle ridge. That would of course make Lt. Smith the senior officer if we are going with the notion of a two company force acting together independently from Keogh.
Yan.
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mac
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Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Dec 8, 2015 21:11:27 GMT
Well thank you Ian but I don't do it alone! It is a fascinating part of the affair as in some ways it speaks to so much of what was going on. I think the notion that Keogh was commanding a battalion is a flawed one as QC has pointed out and when we realise that the whole thing starts to make more sense. Also consider the mindset shown here. We can leave these troops here, on this piece of terrain, with I isolated in the swale and one thin skirmish line and support company further south and they will be able to deal with the large number of warriors in the village. There can be no expectation that there will be any meaningful attack by the village, no expectation that the enemy has a vote. Would Custer have ever used these troop dispositions against another foe? Cheers
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Post by Beth on Dec 8, 2015 22:15:18 GMT
In the past wouldn't Custer have had more resources to deploy?
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Post by quincannon on Dec 8, 2015 23:19:33 GMT
Nothing at all wrong with the way Custer deployed any of his force, including Reno and Benteen, if each of those components had been at full strength, or better yet said real battalions and companies.
When you spread butter on your morning toast, that butter will only spread so thin.
Just to throw some crap in the game, I am not at all sure, after much thought, that C and L were fighting the same battle initially. If you go along with the initial position of L being half to two thirds down on the south side of Calhoun Hill, then where we think Company C's initial position was at least a couple of hundred meters too far away to render the dragoon doctrinal support.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Dec 9, 2015 1:07:46 GMT
Yes. I remember we briefly discussed the archeology that shows this over dinner. Given that there was a skirmish line down there it not only raises the question of where were C but also where did the forces rejoin. If it was low on Calhoun Hill's slope then L were perhaps placed there without any survey of the location beyond that open slope. If Keogh is then placed in the swale which is then even more isolated the notion of a Keogh battalion is well and truly gone. Would C simply be higher up the slope at that time? Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 9, 2015 11:53:52 GMT
Take a look at this map drawn by Cheyenne John Stands in Timber, just look at the route taken by Custer, it looks like his whole command moves down a ravine between Blummer-Nye-Cartwright and Luce ridge straight up to Calhoun hill, right across battle ridge and straight passed tghe cemetery down to the river near were the railway bridge is now, it then looks like he is deflected away and forced through the cemetery area again before stopping on FFR, they then go to LSH and are finally pushed back to were Keogh marker is now, also look out for the two groups of Indians that are positioned either side of the ravine as they initially approach Calhoun hill;
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Post by quincannon on Dec 9, 2015 17:37:00 GMT
Can't see the map Ian. Too small for my eyes.
Following the description you gave though and plotting it on the Bonafides, it looks and sounds very much like JSIT (who was not there), is trying to make sense of the marker locations (which were there when he wrote and drew) and trying to wedge Indian tales into it sideways.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 9, 2015 19:08:30 GMT
Chuck it should enlarge when opened and then is will enlarge even more once more, there should be a small icon for a magnifying glass which allows you to really see close.
Yan.
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dave
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Post by dave on Dec 9, 2015 21:03:06 GMT
QC On my computer I just click on the map and it enlarges. Hope it works for you. Regards Dave
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Dec 10, 2015 3:29:57 GMT
Interesting map! I think I agree with QC's observations and I would add that he is coming from a Cheyanne perspective and making them the key protagonists. Having said that he is drawing on their stories. My thought on battle stories is that it is hard to put them in context as no one is seeing anything more than their immediate action and to make sense we really need to know where they were when they made their observations. It does add to the evidence for a trip to Ford D I think. That is near the Cheyenne end and so he has stories of pushing Custer away from that end. Lack of information in the at the south end suggests to me that the warriors around Calhoun Hill were not Cheyenne. No surprise there I guess. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 10, 2015 12:39:16 GMT
Apparently John Stands in Timber got a tour of the battlefield by his Step-Grandfather the one and only "Wolftooth" and this is what the map is based on and probably why it only covers the Custer sector.
I wish I could show you his account of the battle but it would take an age to type out, strangely enough it has no mention of any ford B episode and pays a lot of attention of what happened at ford D and the move to cemetery hill.
Yan.
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Post by Beth on Dec 10, 2015 21:00:54 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 11, 2015 13:29:27 GMT
Beth, I cannot get it to open, it just keeps timing out.
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Post by Beth on Dec 11, 2015 20:23:57 GMT
humm--it opens for me. I wonder if it has problems crossing the pond.
Its a downloadable PDF so I'll see about getting it loaded to the site
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Dec 11, 2015 20:27:54 GMT
Beth/Yan I can open it. Works fine. Regards Dave
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