|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 5, 2015 11:55:42 GMT
Thanks Conrad, it is helpful when posters like yourself find and post info like that above, as it answers a few questions and helps us to determine an outcome.
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 5, 2015 11:57:49 GMT
Please take seven minutes and look at this Apollo Custer snippet, just take in the terrain and see if you agree with me that this was a terrible area to be caught, for Keogh to place his company in this god awful place was really stupid, it looks like he was covered all round by high ground which gives him no visibility what’s so ever, I am no strategist but I cannot see why he would waste his unit here, what was it covering? And can you even see LNC ridge from here? Listen to what he says around the six minute mark, he mentions what I was talking about yesterday and Keogh’s men being caught in formation and not deployed. link
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 13:27:46 GMT
It's bad ground for a defensive stand, but if Keogh is trying to keep a reserve out of sight/fire it's good at least temporarily. This "one big battalion" scenario has got me thinking about a couple of alternate explanations for Keogh's disposition besides incompetence: - Keogh could have been a general reserve for the whole Custer wing, which explains the fact that he's so far from L and C, nearly midway of battle ridge.
- Keogh could have been moving with Custer, who was notified that L and C were in trouble. Keogh is told to take Co. I and go take charge. He gets close just as the storm breaks over Calhoun Hill and Battle Ridge.
I don't really think either of those scenarios are likely, just that they're unprovable possibilities. Cheers, conrad
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 5, 2015 15:14:23 GMT
They are as good as anyone's Conrad, in fact was Keogh actually attached to these two?, Calhoun could have been in charge of a two companied battalion.
If Keogh was attached to the other three in a two company battalion then were he positioned himself and his own I company was so isolated not by distance but by the terrain, it just shows how unexpected events turned over on the other side of the ridge, Keogh was so detached in his little area that the other two companies collapsed and fell upon him.
One last thing about CA, if he is right and the markers do show this, then both Calhoun's and Harrington's men knew which gully to run down to find Keogh, which would lend some credence to the notion that they knew exactly were to find him.
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 5, 2015 17:19:30 GMT
You can see by direct line of sight to L-N-C from where Keogh, with Company I was positioned.
Custer Apollo makes a good case, and narrates a darn good story, BUT, we do not know from where he got his information, and the manner which his opinions were formed, that served as the basis of his story.
Conrad's, one company (Company I) being the lone reserve for all five companies makes more sense than maybe he even realizes. In that event though there would be no Keogh battalion, for the reserve always belongs to the overall commander, and it is his and only his to employ as he sees fit.
Keogh to the rescue seems much less likely, and assumes that Custer himself knew of the plight of Companies C and L, and I don't think we have anything that would support this.
Keogh with Cooke, could very simply be explained as a leaders recon - Hey Cooke, I am going to ride with you for a look see. We all may be going in behind Reno. Only half a point in favor of a Keogh battalion for that one, because he just may have only been thinking about his own company, or he just may have been curious.
This is a splendid exercise in that it causes us to seek and see more than the conventional that we have been fed all these years.
To refresh ourselves I am going to lay out as best I can the Montrose Theory, as a point of general reference for all. He will correct any error I make.
Company I, along with C and L arrive on battle ridge, after Custer, but before Custer departs, FROM the direction of Luce-Nye-Cartwright. Custer is in expectation of reinforcements from Benteen. The logical thing to expect is that Benteen will follow the trail over those same ridges.
Custer places C and L where they can cover his rear, that rear being concerned with the avenue of approach leading from Ford B to battle ridge , specifically the Calhoun Hill portion of that ridge.
To Keogh, he tells, take your I and move into that area (the swale) - Your mission is to secure this area as a regimental assembly area/attack position, and both keep it clear and keep the lanes open for reinforcement.
Early on, Indians start appearing in those lanes, probably from working their way around Company L's left flank. That cuts off communication to the other two companies. Indians are stating to come over the top of battle ridge as well. There are now Indians behind Keogh. There are Indians to his east between the swale and that ridge out there. There are also Indians to his south between Company I and the other two companies. All of this before Company L breaks and Company C goes forward. Company I was fighting for its life at the same time as C and L
Ian: I don't think it would be any mystery as to where Company I was, for those who sought escape from C and L.
We may very well be over-engineering a steel ball here. Generally speaking, very generally, the complicated issues that appear during combat have simple and direct answers and solutions.
For you doubters the swale is the best assembly area/attack position on the whole battlefield. Big enough to assemble the entire regiment, and secure enough for the trains, once any attack is launched. The added benefit is that it serves equally well for an attack in the direction of Ford B as well as Ford D.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 5, 2015 19:04:17 GMT
Chuck I don’t have a problem with were L Company was positioned, and in my mind their right flank was their weakest spot due to the river and the village, their left flank would be some ways off from the main Indian access route via ford B and at this stage still clear, so I believe that C Company was positioned with this weakness in mind and stood to police this area.
But if Custer saw the value of the swale area for a rallying point and harbour for the pack train, then this would suggest that he still had some intentions of attacking through the ford B area, which also shifts the emphasis away from the ford D areas, but this shift along with any convergence with Benteen and McDougal would I suppose need Custer to return and take the reins, but he stopped around the cemetery area.
There could be plenty of reasons why he went to cemetery hill instead of riding right over the ridge to the swale, and my money is that the Indians prevented him, if Crazy Horse and a mounted band did fly up deep ravine and through Custer’s lines of communication then there would be plenty more following him on foot and these would along with others would have stopped him cold and forced him to deploy.
I still think that Keogh should have positioned his men to cover deep coulee rather than sit back, because any support would have too cross this feature and it looks like he gave Calhoun too much ground to cover.
Did you notice the two markers on that film, the one for Keogh and the other for Porter, both were surrounded by numerous markers in two distinct groups, hmmm…was L Company operating in two groups?
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 5, 2015 20:06:47 GMT
The swale offers an excellent attack position/assembly area for either Ford, B or D, but it does not suggest that one would be preferable over the other. I think any decision on that would be reserved for any return by Custer from Ford D.
You still think Keogh should have........ That is only Keogh's prerogative if Keogh is in command of a functional three company battalion, a fact not at all in evidence. That is a thought process that must be dismissed until we have conclusive evidence as to the existence of that battalion. There is no conclusive evidence of this, and unless it is found, anything regarding what Keogh should or could have done with the regard to these two companies is as premature as putting a cart before a horse.
After the next rainstorm go out to the street gutter in front of your house. Place a rock into that gutter and see how the water flows around that rock. That is exactly what happens when a far superior force attacks a smaller one. The attacking force flows around that smaller force like water flows around that rock.
Markers: In the Keogh swale the markers tell us nothing. They would tell us little, even if they were completely accurate, and portrayed the very spot the soldiers fell. In that instance, they would only portray a moment in time, the moment of death, and tell us squat about what happened before, or after that death. We know that Keogh was found surrounded by sergeants. I find absolutely nothing unusual, or tale telling about that. Those sergeants would be at the rear of the firing lines, and it would be natural for them to gravitate backwards toward the commander, as bad became worse, and worse turned to fatal.
I think we must resign ourselves to be always plagued by the unknown, and the unknowable. We must take what is known, not what Custer Apollo, Fred, or Who Struck John speculates upon, as to this reason or that. We must look at the evidence, and only the evidence, and there is not a hell of a lot of that.
I will still throw out that challenge. If anyone has conclusive evidence beyond a shadow of doubt that a Keogh battalion, legitimately formed by order of the commanding officer exists, then present that evidence from a primary source.
Absent conclusive evidence about the very existence of that battalion, we cannot determine what and why, who did what and who didn't, whose decision caused what action, who did not make a decision they were supposed to. For instance Keogh cannot be held responsible for any fault in that area, other than any he made with his own company, if he did not command them. Evidence of a senior officer in an area, DOES NOT make it conclusive that that senior officer commanded the whole. It may be convenient to assume and speculate it being so, but THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.
How can anyone assume the two groupings in the Keogh swale were controlled by Keogh and Porter when Porter's body was never identified. So who decided to place those markers in the film, and upon what basis did he make his decision?
Somebody says, I saw it in a book, he said she said. DOES NOT HOLD WATER.
I will tell you all the reason that I subscribe to the Montrose Theory. It is the most tactically sound, taking in all the factors of tactics and doctrine (both then and now)presentation I have ever found on any of these boards by anyone, including myself (I am ashamed to say)in the entire time I have frequented these boards. That, and I fully trust Montrose's judgment. There is much less distance between his practical application of these things than mine. I have grown stale. It is the best speculative expression of what probably did happen. Still not perfect. Still speculation, but it is a speculation based upon a firm knowledge of subject matter.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Dec 5, 2015 20:07:18 GMT
Sometimes I get so confused. Someday I hope to meet with you guys so you can illustrate these movements to me because I have a hard time picturing them some times.
What I do know is that every I watch Custer Apollo's video I feel like the markers are 180 degrees off--with the NA coming through the ravine, the fighting began low and moved up towards the ridge not swiping over the ridge and into the swale. Please explain why this probably didn't happen?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 5, 2015 20:38:47 GMT
It is a 180 degrees out because Custer Apollo is assuming that the initial battle position for Company I was on the high ground of the ridge, and from that initial battle position, was forced back into the swale. That is a speculation on his part based upon a fact not in evidence.
Now admittedly that could have happened, BUT, there is no supporting artifact or remains in evidence on the west side of the ridge opposite the swale, indicating, to me, no presence over there at any time. Those markers that could either be a retreat from the ridge OR flight toward the ridge top then, must be placed in the context of the probable rest of the story.
NOW, having said that, we have absolutely no idea what the ravages of time and known construction may have had on any artifacts on the west side of the ridge, nor do we have any knowledge of markers that may have been moved or removed to facilitate construction. Remember all that a road runs through the very area in question.
That is why I stand by what I said above, the markers themselves tell us squat about the flow of battle in that area. What frightens me to death is in these last few days I am starting to sound like DC.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Dec 5, 2015 21:32:50 GMT
I totally agree that the markers really don't tell as much about the battle as some people believe. The markers have been moved for construction and I suspect it's possible some of the bodies were moved between death and burial either for ease of burial or by NA. It wouldn't have been far in either case but for example if the NA searched a body on the high side of a slope and then gave it a shove to get at another body or item--the first body could have ended down hill from the actual place of death. And of course spurious markers seem to be stuck 'there' because 'we have extra markers and we have to put them somewhere.'
The spurious ones bother me the most because since they were put in place by people who had an idea what battle lines should look like, they might have smudged a few here and there to (unconsciously) construct a better story or to just to make sense out of chaos.
It would be like trying to play connect the dots where you have several random dots with no numbers to give the order of connections and need to place a few more dots--the human brain hates chaos and will try to make patterns whether one exists or not.(apophenia)
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 5, 2015 21:57:09 GMT
Beth: They were put in place by people who did not give a damn about history, and who could care less about people 140 years hence, who are trying to make sense of these affairs.
It was a stinking miserable detail, far worse than cleaning the grease trap behind the mess hall while on KP. Not even Montrose will remember that miserable stinking task, for it was before his time, something he should be eternally grateful for.
To them it was a matter of how fast we can get these things in place and get the hell out of this godforsaken place, and I don't blame them one damned bit.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Dec 5, 2015 22:28:05 GMT
I know the original burial party just buried the bodies as quickly as possible. It would have been a terrible, terrible job and done without much care to be on the graphic side, if they had a torso in one place, they probably just put in a number of legs,arms and a head that were gathered in the immediate area--and if the torso was on rock-it might have been shifted a few inches one way or another to give them enough dirt to almost cover the remains.
I was more referring to the later burial party when the stones were laid. I have heard that the reason for so many paired stoned (one real, one spurious) is because the people laying the stones would see signs of the dirt having been dug on either side of a body and 'read' it as two graves. Now I may be jumping to conclusions but to me that says then removed all the bodies to the mass grave and then went back and set a lot of the stones--otherwise they would have known if there was one or two bodies.
We also know there was at least one effort to clean up the battlefield after remains were exposed by weather or scavengers--there is no way of knowing if that cleanup possibly new graves by piling up remains and covering them yet again in a new location.
Finally we have bodies relocated because of construction...
BTW. Another thing to consider but I don't know if it would be a factor or even make a difference when it comes to the markers at LBH but traditionally Christians bury on an east/west axis with the feet at the east end of a grave and the head west so at Judgement Day the dead would stand and be facing the rising son.
|
|
carl
Recruit
Posts: 48
|
Post by carl on Dec 5, 2015 23:23:46 GMT
Beth: They were put in place by people who did not give a damn about history, and who could care less about people 140 years hence, who are trying to make sense of these affairs. It was a stinking miserable detail, far worse than cleaning the grease trap behind the mess hall while on KP. Not even Montrose will remember that miserable stinking task, for it was before his time, something he should be eternally grateful for. To them it was a matter of how fast we can get these things in place and get the hell out of this godforsaken place, and I don't blame them one damned bit. I had the honor of cleaning the grease trap at Camp Kilmer while in transit to go overseas. A never forgetable event.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 6, 2015 0:18:56 GMT
We are both dating ourselves Carl. We both remember grease traps, and we both remember Camp Kilmer, New Jersey.
"I think I shall never see/ A poem lovely as a tree" Sergeant Joyce Kilmer, 165th Infantry A.E.F. (69th New York) NYARNG, Killed in Action in France 1918.
For those that may not know Camp Kilmer was the staging area for the Port of New York.
We colonials bury our pirates at the Naval Academy, and name Army Posts after poets.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Dec 6, 2015 0:41:30 GMT
Ah but one country's pirate is another's privateer.
|
|