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Post by yanmacca on Apr 10, 2018 23:34:24 GMT
Hi Tom, I know that Custer made all the mistakes and paid the price, he fragmented his fighting strength and gave his subordinates no plan of attack. By the looks of it, Reno was in the process of letting Weir drag him into a second fight, because he must of gave some orders to move, either verbal or by trumpet call.
I don't know just how close Reno got to Weir peaks, did he ever arrive? did he actually see what Benteen saw?
If so the pull back of those companies was done in haste and it looked like every company for themselves.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2018 3:13:33 GMT
The best of them appear like it is every company for themselves Ian, and it usually is. Withdrawal while in contact is the hardest of the hard things military units are sometimes required to do.
If it does not look like a pile of shit, it probably isn't combat, and it is certainly not a withdrawal.
Tom we must try that very thing when you and Steve are next at LBH. I'll ask for the Essential Elements of Information required, you and Steve provide the feedback via computer, then I will team up with Ian to provide the plan and graphics to support it. We can do a dedicated thread here.
We can even provide a five paragraph field order if I can find my old operations handbook to refer to.
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Post by dan25 on Apr 11, 2018 11:10:26 GMT
I don't know just how close Reno got to Weir peaks, did he ever arrive? did he actually see what Benteen saw? I don't know how correct this is, it's 1st Sgt. John Ryan of Company M. This may help with the credibility of his account. He enlisted in Dec. 1862 with the 28th Mass. Inf. After the war he enlisted in Nov. 1866 with the newly formed 7th Cav. and was assigned to Co. M, where he rose to the rank of 1st Sgt. After his discharge from the Army he returned to his home town of West Newton Mass. where he joined the police force, and rose through the ranks to captain. "Leaving two companies with the packs and wounded, Major Reno, with five companies, or what was left of them, proceeded in the direction we had supposed General Custer took, and in the direction of the Indian camp. We went in that direction for probably half a mile until we gained a high point and could overlook the Indian camp and the battlefield. We saw at a distance of from a mile and a half to two miles parties whom we supposed were Indians, riding back and forth, firing scattering shots. We thought that they were disposing of Custer's wounded men, and this afterward proved to be true."
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 11, 2018 15:25:37 GMT
Well I don't know how correct it is either, that's why I placed a question mark after the line.
I will say one thing though, Benteen apparently rode back from Weir Peaks to meet Reno and tell him the situation up ahead and how it would be better to defend the area from wherefore whence they came. Reno agreed and sent out Trumpeter Penwell to covey his orders to the various company commander to withdraw, then he turned around and headed back.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2018 20:14:50 GMT
I wonder how Penwell was chosen/got the job? He was a Company K man, and one would think he was with Godfrey and the rest of Company K. He is the same Penwell that was with Godfrey on the 27th when he discovered the trail on L-N-C, and was with him again ten years later when Godfrey met up with Edgerly and Gall, and verified that trail location.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Apr 11, 2018 20:17:34 GMT
So, in my view they had ample reason to stay put until such time as the situation could be clarified by means of reconnaissance. I cannot, nor will I speak to any provocation on the part of Weir. Were it me though I would have placed him under field arrest for insubordination, and if it continued I would have him summarily shot for disobedience in the face of the enemy. QC,
I completely agree with you. Insubordination is a serious action under any condition, when done in combat it is even worse. However, with that being said, you are in a jackpot, you are going to need every man you have especially your Officers and NCOs. Add to that I don't know if his (Weirs) men trusted and believed in him, but if they did you arresting him could cause some disgruntled soldiers which is another s##t storm which you don't need at this time.
Would it not be more prudent to wait until you got out of this mess, IF you get out of it, and then have him arrested .
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2018 20:45:11 GMT
No I don't think it would be prudent to wait, regardless of the ramifications.
You are quite correct, they were in a jackpot, and if they were to get out of that jackpot, they would need strong leadership with everyone focused in the job at hand. The old saying that - There is noting that will get your attention more than the prospect of your own hanging - applies here, I believe.
In all probability field arrest would have been all that was necessary. If Weir just had a burr up his ass, he just needed a cooling off period. Being denied command in combat would hurt like hell, but if he came out of it, I see no reason to not restore him to command and not make a lasting record of the event. This same scenario went on a lot during the ACW, and some people who were heavy hitters on both sides were placed under field arrest, and it normally did the trick
The message sent to Weir and anyone else that thinks they can run roughshod over the person in charge is quite clear - step out of line and you're next.
Personally though I do not think Reno had such in him. He was a weak sister, and in truth had no place in a combat unit. He did the best he was capable of though, and his one timely decision in the valley saved a hell of a lot of people, and probably prevented the rest of the regiment, Benteen and the pack trains from getting wiped out. Had he not broken out of his encirclement when he did, and how he did, defeat in detail was right around the corner.
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Post by chardvc on Apr 11, 2018 20:57:18 GMT
Right decision QC but can't help thinking that it wasn't so much a decision as a reaction.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2018 20:59:50 GMT
Maybe so CVC. I know it would be my reaction. Everyone loves a dead hero, except the hero.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Apr 11, 2018 21:26:35 GMT
No I don't think it would be prudent to wait, regardless of the ramifications. You are quite correct, they were in a jackpot, and if they were to get out of that jackpot, they would need strong leadership with everyone focused in the job at hand. The old saying that - There is noting that will get your attention more than the prospect of your own hanging - applies here, I believe. In all probability field arrest would have been all that was necessary. If Weir just had a burr up his ass, he just needed a cooling off period. Being denied command in combat would hurt like hell, but if he came out of it, I see no reason to not restore him to command and not make a lasting record of the event. This same scenario went on a lot during the ACW, and some people who were heavy hitters on both sides were placed under field arrest, and it normally did the trick The message sent to Weir and anyone else that thinks they can run roughshod over the person in charge is quite clear - step out of line and you're next. Personally though I do not think Reno had such in him. He was a weak sister, and in truth had no place in a combat unit. He did the best he was capable of though, and his one timely decision in the valley saved a hell of a lot of people, and probably prevented the rest of the regiment, Benteen and the pack trains from getting wiped out. Had he not broken out of his encirclement when he did, and how he did, defeat in detail was right around the corner. QC,
I probably wouldn't have handled it that way for the reasons I gave, but I do understand the reasoning and logic behind your opinion.
Be Well Dan
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Post by dan25 on Apr 11, 2018 22:12:00 GMT
Two questions please.
1. Was there any particular reason Capt. Weir would be so concerned about Custer?
2. Wasn't Reno a fairly good officer in the ACW, he just didn't have enough experience fighting Indians?
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Post by quincannon on Apr 12, 2018 0:05:48 GMT
1) Loyalty for some reason that is completely unknown to me although I think it was more loyalty to Mrs. Custer than to George. You have probably heard the same rumors I have, and while I don't think it was a two way street, there appears something amiss about this three way relationship.
2) Reno appears now and again in the various narratives. He led a small brigade of regular cavalry at Kelly's Ford, and a couple of other small mentions. Nothing spectacular that I have ever seen.
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Post by dan25 on Apr 12, 2018 1:02:21 GMT
Actually I know very little about Weir. I thought perhaps Custer had done some favor, or treated him favorable and Weir felt obligated.
As for reno I have a few things I jotted down a while ago. He was in several battles, and brevetted to Major, then to Lt. Col. I assumed being promoted twice he was a fairly good officer.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 12, 2018 9:37:42 GMT
I wonder how Penwell was chosen/got the job? He was a Company K man, and one would think he was with Godfrey and the rest of Company K. He is the same Penwell that was with Godfrey on the 27th when he discovered the trail on L-N-C, and was with him again ten years later when Godfrey met up with Edgerly and Gall, and verified that trail location. He was a Company K trumpeter Chuck, but found his way into Reno's battalion headquarters which was thirteen men strong, I will post it up later when I clear up some discrepancies. Godfrey does say that Penwell reached him with orders to pull back.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 12, 2018 12:58:26 GMT
Actually I know very little about Weir. I thought perhaps Custer had done some favor, or treated him favorable and Weir felt obligated. As for reno I have a few things I jotted down a while ago. He was in several battles, and brevetted to Major, then to Lt. Col. I assumed being promoted twice he was a fairly good officer. Dan, as early as the late 1860's he was squiring Libbie around when George was absent. She could not go to functions unattended. GAC was aware. I know of no improprieties. I have, though, wondered if her maybe telling him to F-OFF, after Georges death might not have contributed to his untimely demise.
Reno was in Indian issues in the Pacific Northwest prior to the ACW. I do not know that that included much combat, if any.
Regards, Tom
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