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Post by quincannon on Apr 8, 2018 14:36:26 GMT
I believe all of the wounded were transported or intended to be transported along with the rest of the combined battalions, and I assume that Porter would have gone along with them. I also believe that hollow where Porter set up his aid station was not established until they returned. Someone may have better information or be able to confirm this.
Small things often tell you more than the size of the incident indicates.
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Post by dan25 on Apr 8, 2018 16:06:13 GMT
Thanks QC. You may be right.
I was going by Dr. Porters questions and answers. After stating he had set up a hospital and remained there. The following questions led me to think Dr. Porter stayed behind.
Q. "Did you see an advance of any company soon after Col. Benteen came up, and where did it go?" A. "I saw Capt. Weir GOING down stream."
Q. "When you saw him GO down had the pack-train come up?" A. "I think it came up about the time he was going BACK."
I assumed Dr. Porter meant to say, "coming BACK." To me the key word was "BACK" , after stating he saw Capt. Weir "GOING", which would indicate he didn't leave Reno Hill.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 8, 2018 17:32:20 GMT
D25
I happened to have Godfrey's account handy and checked what he had to say. He does mention the aid station (hospital) being established. He does mention it but mentions it only after the command came back from Weir Point, and as you know Godfrey was the rear guard for that phase. That being a rear guard would put him out of the area, and not witnessing when exactly it was established. He only mentions it was, along with the horses and mules being placed in or near the same area as a measure of relative safety.
As I said before I think the whole command moved downstream following Weir and Edgerly. Three or four companies were actually engaged in that area including Godfrey's Company K. I do not know how many of those wounded in the valley would have reached the hilltop before the regiment (-) moved downstream, but my thought is that it would be very few. None of Benteen's men had been touched so far, and I would think any non-ambulatory wounded in the valley fight were dead meat. Godfrey says that a few from the valley fight, including a couple of wounded made it to the hilltop after Reno was there, but he also says that Reno himself along with some of his troops went back down into the valley ostensibly to find Hodgson and get water, and were repelled rather quickly.
So my impression, and that's all it is, is that there were few wounded at the time Weir left, and it's likely those were mostly ambulatory, so I am not sure that any organized effort was made to set up an aid station at that juncture. The other thing is that this was the 19th Century, deep in the Victorian era, and leaving wounded in any number behind for whatever reason, with or without a doctor present,would not even be considered as a viable option by anyone, at that point. I understand it was mentioned later, perhaps during the night of the 25-26, but I have never been able to verify that.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 8, 2018 19:03:01 GMT
Lieutenant Edgery said that after his Captain and Striker took off, he ordered D Company to follow, he then says that three more companies followed and in this order, H, K and M. Later Lieutenant Wallace led what was left of G Company to join the line.
What was left followed behind, but it was Captain Moylan and the remains of A Company who's job it was to move the wounded, so I would guess that Dr Porter would be embedded with this company. Apparently they had to carry the wounded in blankets, which sounds like a hellish job on such a hot day. Moylan was simply under manned for this task and asked Captain McDougall for help, I think that Company B was still acting as a guard or even rear guard for the column and he gave about half his men to help Moylan move the wounded.
So after D, H, K and M left we would have the wounded and the remaining fit men of A Company plus the pack train and B Company. This force had only got going when the order came to turn back to Reno Hill.
While some order was being formed on Reno hill, Lieutenant Godfrey and his Company K, set up a skirmish line on Sharp Shooter Ridge and this was to cover the area while preparations were being made. He had only two dozen men in his line as he sent his horse holders plus the horses back to Reno Hill. In my view Godfrey was one of the heroes of the day, not only acting as a cover guard whilst the other four companies withdrew off Weir peaks but later on forming this second line on SSR.
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Post by dan25 on Apr 8, 2018 20:13:02 GMT
QC and Yan, thank you for your responses.
Not to beat a dead horse, when Lt. Edgerly originally arrived on Reno Hill, Capt. Moylan approached him and asked for water saying he (Moylan) had twenty five wounded men dying of thirst. I am not sure if the 25 was from his company or a total of wounded.
Yan, you are correct, Capt. Molan left reno Hill carrying five wounded on horse blankets.
I guess the rest are what is considered walking wounded, even if some were riding.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 9, 2018 9:32:25 GMT
Dan, the casualty figures for A Company were;
9 x KIA 1 x WIA (Died of Wounds later) 8 x WIA
G Company; 14 x KIA 6 x WIA
M Company; 12 x KIA 1 x WIA (Died of Wounds) 10 x WIA
That's 26 wounded in total!
Now as you know, not all of these casualties were suffered in the valley fight because some where later on Reno Hill. I think that the combined total of men killed in both the valley and the hill top siege was around 58.
I had a quick look through my data to find you some figures and one source [apparently from a report by Reno himself] says that his battalion lost three officers KIA and 29 enlisted men KIA in the valley fight plus another seven wounded.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 9, 2018 11:20:03 GMT
D25,
You are not the only one who gets sidetracked I have often wondered if anyone other than Benteen heard or knew that Reno had brought up leaving the wounded and withdraw the night of the 25th/26th. Benteen informed Godfrey years later. Prior to this information Godfrey had not ripped Reno publically.
Can you imagine if this had been done? We would not have read about an RCOI, but we would have seen other proceedings.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dan25 on Apr 9, 2018 14:02:52 GMT
Yan, seeing your wounded and killed, I remembered they are listed on the roster for the 7th. I never thought to look. Deadwood, that is the first time I heard of Reno thinking of leaving the wounded. What a good officer. Reno also told little white lies. I think it is common knowledge that Weir left on his own with out permission to find Custer, yet on Reno's official report of July 5, 1876, he stated he sent Capt. Weir and his company to open communications with Gen. Custer. www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=3&psid=4021Then at his court of inquiry he stated he sent Lt. Hare to go to Capt. Weir, who on his own hook had moved out his company, and tell him (Capt. Weir) to communicate with Gen. Custer. What I would love to know, what was discussed between Benteen and Reno when Weir left that convinced them to follow. Obviously it was quick thinking of someone's part to send Hare to catch Weir with the message to cover their butt's.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Apr 9, 2018 15:30:13 GMT
Since Reno was in charge he must have not accepted the choice of leaving the wounded behind. I think there are lots of things discussed but it the choices made that matter.
I think we have to look at permanent structure rather than what happened in the battalion structure. The company commanders would report to Custer until he placed them in a temporary battalion. Weir's action were did nothing to help Custer. When he took off in Reno Creek he went so slow that Benteen caught him from behind. Sounds more like frustration to me. His company watered first and he didn't want to sit and wait.
As far as Weir going to Weir Point. Weir never personally went past the safety of Weir Point. Edgerly did go past while Weir remained behind. What I don't understand is that going to WP is a good place to see what is going on but it does nothing to help Custer. I think one could argue that Reno and Benteen were involved in putting the troops together and waiting for the pack train to go on. So I would think that sending a company to WP is a good idea but that does not mean that it establishes contact with Custer.
Weir chose to recall Edgerly to WP rather than open communications with Custer. I think he did a reasonable thing in that it would give some observations at a distance without placing himself in close contact with the Indians. They clearly knew that Custer had headed in that directions but did not know locations or how many Indians were willing to fight.
I don't consider riding off from the morass or planting his *ss on WP as acts of bravery. The former was frustration and the latter established an observation post. I think the former was not ordered nor would it be but the later could have been a best available decision for a company not involved in the wounded and/or pact train.
Unless Weir is lying he never ordered his company to move out.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 9, 2018 18:24:43 GMT
You are right Steve, I am sure that Weir never gave Edgerly any orders to move D Company, instead he moved forward with only his striker or orderly for company [Pvt Sanders I think it was].
Personally if I were Reno, I would have halted the pack train on Reno Hill and left the remains of companies A, G and M to hold the place. They could have set up an aid station for the wounded and even sent out water parties to fetch water to build up a water reserve.
I would have sent four companies ahead to locate Custer [D, H, K and B]
To even contemplate sending a column of wounded and a pack train forward in the direction were not too long before was a hornets nest of Indians is ludicrous. It would be much better see what is out there before moving this slow moving column and try and link up with Custer and the main body, because up to that point any ground north of Reno Hill was unknown to them and more then likely still under the control of the Indians and lets face it, for all they knew Custer could have shot through.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 9, 2018 19:37:04 GMT
I think we sometime believe that if you go into MTC and come out the other side you are at Calhoun. You are not. There is a triangular piece of land between MTC and CH and it includes those areas of NC and Luce where we know that fighting went on. Just from Calhoun to the bottom of Deep Coulee is 670-700 yards. Certainly not within an overlapping field fire. After climbing out of MTC it is 1700-1800 yards travel through terrain suited for ambush by Indians. At the end of the 1800 yards you are still 600+ yards from CH. So from Weir to MTC it is around 1500 yards. The total distance from Weir to CH is approximately 4100 yards.
I see no reason to believe that Keogh was placed close where he died to wait for Benteen. Doesn't make sense. At best it could be fall back position if things went wrong in the two company advance theory. If so it didn't work. If all companies had moved toward LSH and a retrograde was in progress then the CH area seems more likely to me. It is not impossible that only two companies went passed the CH area but it seems less likely to me.
I can not buy that Benteen would know how to traverse the terrain in order to catch up with a moving Custer that moved on his advance faster than a mule could travel. You would have buy it was safe to go into MTC climb out then negotiate the rough terrain of NC and Luce and continue to have no opposition to enter Deep Coulee. If all that were true then Custer could have come back that way.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Apr 9, 2018 19:44:09 GMT
How many pairs of eyes are required to locate Custer, if indeed he could be located?
What happens if Indians get between the four companies sent north and the remainder left on Reno Hill?
At that point was there a pressing need to make contact with Custer?
If not, what was the pressing need at that point in the battle?
If so, how could that pressing need be best accomplished?
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Post by dan25 on Apr 9, 2018 20:57:40 GMT
I think there is a misunderstanding.
I never said Capt. Weir told any one to move company D.
I said Major Reno lied in his report regarding Capt. Weir being ordered by him (Reno) to go and find Custer.
As for leaving Reno Hill, I think the only reason that Reno and Benteen decided to follow Capt. Weir, they were afraid of what Weir would say to Custer if he found him, not to mention a probable court martial if they didn't follow. If Weir never left Reno Hill, I don't think Benteen or Reno would have left the hill to find Custer, they would have stayed right there.
AZ, I understand what you are saying, you know the terrain, Benteen and Reno didn't. If they decided to move north past Weir Point, only then would they have learned about the terrain, the hard way when it was to late.
As I said above, I don't think Reno or Benteen had any intention of leaving Reno Hill to find Custer, untill Weir provoked the move.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 9, 2018 23:18:19 GMT
Neither would I. It was a stupid move, one that had absolutely no redeeming value.
So, in my view they had ample reason to stay put until such time as the situation could be clarified by means of reconnaissance. I cannot, nor will I speak to any provocation on the part of Weir. Were it me though I would have placed him under field arrest for insubordination, and if it continued I would have him summarily shot for disobedience in the face of the enemy.
Did Reno send Hare to Weir with orders to open communications with Custer? If he did then Reno did not lie.
Instead of moving, why not send out a four man patrol under a reliable NCO? Weir Peak was visible from where they stood. It was easily identifiable high ground, from which much can be seen. The whole thing could have been accomplished within half an hour, start to finish.
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Post by dan25 on Apr 10, 2018 0:46:05 GMT
QC, I agree, if Reno had denied permission for Weir to leave, then Weir attempted to leave that was insubordination. As for Reno lying or not lying, let me explain. Capt. Weir left Reno Hill without permission. On July 5, 1876 Reno wrote an official report about what happened at the LBH. In this report Reno said that he (Reno) sent Capt. Weir and his company to open communications with Gen. Custer. This is the lie, Reno didn't send Weir. Here is the link to read that report. www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=3&psid=4021 Then at his own court of inquiry, Reno finally tells the truth. Reno said that he (Reno) sent Lt. hare to go to Capt. Weir, who on his own hook had moved out his company, and tell him (Capt. Weir) to communicate with Gen. Custer. Here is the link to that page. digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.Reno.p0530&id=History.Reno&isize=M2 different stories about the same event.
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