Excuse or reason

[quincannon]

Beth: When you come right down to it any military unit is no more that a set of Colors. It is the assigned officers that lead them, and the non-commissioned officer and enlisted personnel that fill the ranks that make the difference between the good, the mediocre, and the bad.

The 7th Cavalry went to Korea, as a very bad unit. It had been used for four years as a palace guard in Tokyo. They were all spiffy and shinny, for that role, but had had only one or two trips to the field for training during that time. Leadership at regimental and battalion level were considered retirement hail and farewell assignments. Unit readiness was in terrible shape, and equipment had largely been stored, and a good portion unserviceable. One battalion of the normal three was not filled with personnel, and the other two were operating between sixty and seventy percent of full fill. Enablers like the tank and heavy mortar companies were unfilled. As a result they were creamed on first contact.

To be fair everyone else in Japan was in the same shape. The 24th Division was nearly wiped out in the first three weeks of July 1950. The rest of the First Cavalry Division was in as bad a shape as the 7th Cavalry. The 7th Division which did not deploy until Inchon was a complete basket case down to about a thousand men from the required 15 thousand with virtually no equipment in late July and August 1950.

The only unit that performed well from the outset, well, not great, was the 25th Division, or at least the 27th and 35th Regiments of that Division. The difference was the leadership. They suffered with the same ills as all the rest, but were blessed with leaders who cared and insisted they be kept within their capabilities until they could be set straight organizationally. Kean, the division commander was first rate. The two regimental commanders were highly experienced and relatively young for their rank. The third regiment of that division was the All Black 24th Infantry, and had some very good enlisted personnel and company grade officers. At Regiment and battalion the leadership was miserable. That is a whole different story, one that needs telling, but not here, not now.

So how does all this relate? Leaders cannot help the hand they are initially dealt. They cannot make up for the lost time, and broken promises. What then can do is make the most of what they have in garrison, on the march, and in battle.

Ask yourself this. Could another officer have come in and relieved Custer on the day they left Fort Lincoln, sent Custer packing, made no other changes in officer leadership, worked under the very same handicaps that faced Custer, and made the thing work to where a satisfactory outcome could have been achieved. Not talking tactics here, for virtually no one in the army would have chosen to do what Custer did. Those tactics were pure Custer. What I am after is could someone else have taken the same material, and built something decent from it?

[yanmacca]

Makes you wonder how things would have panned out with the 7th cavalry commanded like this when it left FAL;

Regt HQ
Col. Sturgis
Lt. Cooke

1st Bn
Maj. Tilford
Capt. Benteen
H, D, K & B Companies

2nd Bn
Maj. Merrill
Capt. Yates
F, I, L & C Companies

3rd Bn
Maj. Reno
Capt. French
M, E, A & G Companies

Yan.

[Beth]

I don't know, I have never been in the military but I suspect that officer aren't exactly plug and play. If a new one had been thrown in at the last minute, I would have expected him to have worked with his regiment on the trip from FAL to Powder River to find out what they are capable of.

In a way Terry was that officer thrown into the mix at the last minute. Shouldn't he have been taking stock of the 7th's capabilities? I imagine his hands were tied that he had to use Custer but if he was aware of their weaknesses and strengths he could have possibly plan around them. I suspect though his own weakness of not understanding Indian Warfare probable was a big factor as well.


Question. I have been wondering lately if perhaps one of the biggest factors in the defeat of the 7th was the long delay between when they were supposed to be 'on the road' to when they actually left FAL. It gave the NA time to gather into a huge camp. Perhaps that is a failure that comes down from the top. You really shouldn't issue an ultimatum without having the power in place to enforce it. Is that valid?

In a way it kind of reminds me of the scene in Gone with the Wind where the young men leave thinking they would have the "Yanks' beat in a few weeks and have a grand old time doing it. Both times the capability of the enemy were grossly underestimated.

[quincannon]

I don't think it would have made all that much difference Ian. Most of those people you inserted were past their sell date, and the unit was rotten to the core. What you would need to get it fixed in a hurry were men like Pershing or Patton, take no prisoners types, who made their own rules and broke men who did not follow them.

A Mackenzie could have done it, but it would have taken more time.

Beth, a law or ultimatum is only as good as your ability to enforce or back it up.

[dave]

QC
As you mentioned above, the 7th and most other army units were woefully unprepared for any combat in 1950. The exceptions you mentioned were because of capable leadership at the regimental level. The 1st Marine Division was also undermanned but had much better leadership from NCOs up to General Smith.
The army units had the same stock American kid as did the Marines but he difference was the leadership.
The 7th at Little Big Horn did not get the best we had to lead them and they paid the price.
Regards
Dave 

[yanmacca]

I think that after six years of war that most countries involved in ww2 were unprepared for another conflict, it wouldn’t surprize me also if a lot of these countries armies were in a transitions phase and had sold off most of their military hardware to other nations to begin to re-arm with more modern stuff.

But one of the problems we all face, was the fact that we always let the bad guys strike first, the north Koreans would have been planning this along with their commie friends in China and Russia and knew where and when they were going to strike, the allies on the other hand would probably be in a state of flux and totally unprepared for the events that unfolded, the commies knew full well that the USA and her allies would need time to assemble and travel to the peninsular plus they would probably hoping that a lot of these countries would not have the will to fight another war especially so soon after ww2.

Yan.

[yanmacca]

May I pay my respects to our Queen, who today is officially the longest serving British Monarch and the worlds oldest serving Sovereign.
During her reign she has seen twelve British Prime Ministers, twelve US Presidents and seven Popes.
Here she is 63 years ago after she was crowned Queen;



In true royal fashion she said that she doesn’t want to make a fuss and today was business as usual.

Yan (Sorry to change topic, but I had to post it somewhere).

[colt45]

Yan, here's to Her Majesty. May she reign at least another decade. She is a fine and gracious lady.

[yanmacca]

Thanks Colt, yes she turns 90 in a few months and shows no sign of packing the job in.

Yan.

[quincannon]

Dave: What makes the Marines performance in Korea even more remarkable is that the early deployment of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Brigade (a very large brigade with its own supporting air) used up nearly all of the regular Marine Corps and were still under strength, and that the follow on 1st Marine Division was largely composed of recalled reservists married up with a regular cadre. Some of those recalled reservists had not even been to boot camp at PI or SD.

Quality leadership is not everything. It is the only thing. (sorry Vince)

God save the Queen. She is one of the world's few class acts.

[Beth]

I would like to echo what a class act the Queen is.

[dave]

Yan

God save our gracious Queen

Long live our noble Queen

God save the Queen

Send her victorious

Happy and glorious

Long to reign over us

God save the Queen

Regards
Dave

[dave]

Sept 9, 2015 12:34:00 GMT yanmacca said:

I think that after six years of war that most countries involved in ww2 were unprepared for another conflict, it wouldn’t surprize me also if a lot of these countries armies were in a transitions phase and had sold off most of their military hardware to other nations to begin to re-arm with more modern stuff.

But one of the problems we all face, was the fact that we always let the bad guys strike first, the north Koreans would have been planning this along with their commie friends in China and Russia and knew where and when they were going to strike, the allies on the other hand would probably be in a state of flux and totally unprepared for the events that unfolded, the commies knew full well that the USA and her allies would need time to assemble and travel to the peninsular plus they would probably hoping that a lot of these countries would not have the will to fight another war especially so soon after ww2.

Yan.

Yan
One of the penalties we pay for being a republic is not being on a war footing continually. Allowing personal freedom and choice enables each American to be an island unto himself till disaster or war takes place.
World War II was so horrendous that many thought man would not go to war again for many years but as always there is evil in the world.
The British economy was about wrecked after August of 1945 and the rest of Europe was devastated. The American's wanted peace and the troops wanted out as badly as did the government so they could reduce the payrolls. As QC has mentioned in this thread and on the other boards as soon as the war is over, the warriors are retired or hidden in backwater assignments, the military leaders are being bleed to death by congress and they have too much equipment over seas that would cost too much to return to the states, so they leave it there.

Meanwhile what troops are left are performing guard details in Japan and the Constabulary, the only army troops supplied with necessary equipment to police and protect Germany and Western Europe from the Soviet Union, was the only elite outfit in the army from 1945 to 1950 or so.
The "Police Action" in Korea was enabled all the professional warriors from the United Nations to use their skills only 5 years after WW II. Thankfully, we still had such men and they could stem the communist tide.

I believe 911 has shown America that isolationism will not work any better today than it did after WW I
Regards
Dave

[yanmacca]

I thank you all, the Queen always goes down well in the USA, its just a petty that I had to watch the anti-monarchist and republicans (different to the Republicans in the states) who want rid of her, having their say, I personally wouldn't give them air time on the news, but that's the BBC for you, straight down the middle.

Yan.

[yanmacca]

Too true Dave.
I do recall reading that the British army had to bring certain AFVs out of retirement because they were mothballed in 1945, some of these were the Churchill crocodile tanks, these buggers soon made their presence felt in Korea, not only for their devastating flame-thrower capabilities but their heavy armour and climbing abilities too, the USA army loved em.

Yan.