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Post by miker on Jun 11, 2023 17:10:48 GMT
The Crow have taken us to where they believe Custer was shot at the timber. Southern Cheyenne came to battlefield and showed us where they were told Custer was shot. It is same area which is the same location the Crow took us to. They don't each other and live hundreds of miles apart. The Southern Cheyenne and Southern Arapaho were there along with the Sacred Arrows. Regards AZ Ranger This doesn't really help my mental picture. It's fine that the Crow and Cheyanne took you to the same spot in "the timber" but what timber are we talking about. I confess when I here "timber" I think of the position Reno occupied before staging a breakout whether it was by luck or planning. There is a wooded area on both sides of Ford B. There is a wooded area on both sides of the current watercourse by the interstate bridge, but if the river was flowing further North I am not sure how I would try to cross. I don't really buy Custer was killed anywhere but at LSH and I also don't think anyone recognized Custer until after the battle. As I understand his wounds, the chest wound would possibly not be immediately fatal but the head would would be. I think I read that they found his distinctive cartridges under his body, if so that would indicate he was still alive at the time. In spite of leave no man behind today, I don't think that was as much in the culture of the time.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 17:19:17 GMT
Digging history There are a number of reasons confounding discovery of evidence of 7th Cavalry on Ford D territory at Little Bighorn, principal of which is that they weren't there on 25th June, 1876. They were 50 years later and filmed doing it. Nice Hero. Nice. Thank you. It's wonderful to be appreciated.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 18:04:09 GMT
HR Those pictures you refer to are not Ford Ds. Those soldiers were bivouacked at Crow Agency and rode across to the old entrance road which is across from the current Custer Battlefield Trading Post. They were also not on BRE where the 10 carbines were identified along with Indian cases. I guess you think there were Indians firing at them since there is also an Indian site just outside the boundary fence at the old entrance road. That should have made the newspaper. Indians firing at soldiers who would ride onto the battlefield years after the battle. The Cheyenne have accounts that date to 1876 participants which you convenient ignore. Those kneeling infantry soldiers were placed on Cemetery Ridge by an Indian participant. That participant was there on June 25, 1876. He positioned them on Cemetery Ridge firing toward BRE where the Indian artifacts were found and toward LSH. Regards AZ Ranger AZR, The two Barry images from 1886, you refer to are posed images by men of 5th Infantry, commanded by Frank D. Baldwin. It was at this gathering that Gall indicated his role in the fighting to Edward S. Godfrey in sign talk, gave interviews published by 'The Pioneer Press' and David F. Barry (published by Usher L. Burdick). Barry also had Baldwin pose troops in skirmish lines for the two images, as directed by Gall. Gall was Hunkpapa Sioux. Richard Fox accepted brief on the ground assessment of one image for 'Where Custer Fell', without any proper corroboration which in conjuction with his complete misreading of 7th Infantry's Capt. Freeman's sketch of the battle, drawn at the time, on the ground, 27th June 1876; to indicate troops west of LSH. Fox so wanted it to be that he made it so. Doesn't mean it is reality. So, the images were taken early morning I learnt from years of interest. The terrain is repetitious across 360°. I have discussed and studied the images for a very long time - decades. With a frequent battlefield visitor, I thought the location had been pinned down as Fox and others gave but, there is a difficulty with the images being taken early in the day. The sun rises in the east. That's a very simple issue with images that show shadows. The other image is of a skirmish position on the west flanks of North Medicine Tail (Deep Coulee) and I can show this below. The other one taken as being west of LSH ' isn't' - if the image was taken morning time. Good luck with your investigations but as i've said to you before, that ford D land used to belong to the Custer scout Curley. He built his cabin there and lived with his family. He was a Sheriff or policeman at the Crow Agency. If he was saying, yup, Custer crossed the river down here - then fine. He never did. He took his pony herd across those fords daily all his life to let them graze on the Custer Battlefield. He was there 25th June 1876, and lived on the fords the rest of his life. The skirmishers are along the retreat route from Greasy Grass Hill up to Calhoun. I think that that is Donovan in the modern image. Regards.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 11, 2023 20:22:18 GMT
In the mean time, I did figure out how to read Camp's odometers...readings are revolutions - so delta revolutions / revs/mile = delta distance in miles, or delta revs x ft/rev - delta distance in feet. Comes in handy to know what the heck feature HE is referring to. I.E he got it right that junction of MTC vs Cedar Coulee is 9,600 ft from Ford B. He also says how far the Divide is from the Morass (8.5mi) in reference to the Lone Tepee (1.2mi) in reference to Ford A. (3.2mi) NOW if I can only figure out what a "station" is, and if there is map somewhere - just might have something to do with telephone lines. Why? Because Camp surveryed the entire trail and points out exactly where everything is. Like 1 station is right at Benteen's Slough. It c/would be fun to know! Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 20:51:26 GMT
What:s the height of Calhoun Hill?
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 11, 2023 21:05:17 GMT
From what I found so far - this is as close as he gets...
Altitudes. Crow Agency Sta. 3041 Monument base is 3320 River bed just below Ford B 316° River bed at foot of Greasy Grass Hill 3155 Top of Greasy Grass Hill 3245
Custer battlefield altitude cemetery at Ft. Keogh monument 3190 Ft 42 in. 4:45 pm 3200 change Baron. Bearing from flagpole in cemetery to monument is N 61 E. Distance cemetery fence to monument 915 feet. Altitude base of monument 3250 at 4:50 pm.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 21:22:31 GMT
There is a nice data set with nearby correlations here and similar stuff link . I haven't a clue which surveys Camp relied upon or whether he made his own. Remind me, what was his day job? ps Calhoun Hill is the dominant high ground and not Last Stand Hill.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 11, 2023 21:24:21 GMT
He got the Crow Agency dead nuts on! NOW if I just new what "the Crow Agency Station" was (maybe in this case it is a RR station?)!
What I am finding is to 'trust no one".
Reading Strategy of Defeat, the author quoted Camp as
"some distance south of these {Reno peaks} there is a high ridge running parallel to the river...just behind this ridge..." The author uses that to refer to Sharpshooter Ridge, then goes through hoops to show what "behind" and "behind the ridge" just might mean, and how to interpret it and why its not what you would think (??) because - as quoted - it does not work.
What the actual Camp quote is:
"FOR some distance south of these there is a high ridge running..."
Which of course makes MUCH more sense if, as Camp was saying, Custer went down South Coulee, which IS just behind the ridge running south of Reno Peaks.
& Hammer's transcripts dont necessarily show what Camp actually wrote - i.e. crossouts, typos etc.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 11, 2023 21:26:26 GMT
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 21:55:04 GMT
Now I am confused about what pictures we are talking about. The infantry soldiers are Cemetery Ridge are obviously not near Ford D. I probably don't know what pictures HR was talking about. I thought there were pictures of the 7th moving across Ford B during the 10 year reunion (perhaps later) where Godfrey buried the hatchet. Are there pictures of troops moving across Ford D from anytime (obviously not during the battle.) Mike
Sorry for the confusion. I have been in discussions with HR forever and his belief that the soldiers were not north of Last Stand Hill. HR posts all these pictures from the anniversaries. The cavalry rode across Highway 8 and staged to the north of administrative site on private land. From there they rode onto the battlefield in front of the hundreds of the visitors that were there for the event. They would not be firing the copper guilded cases that were used in 1876. They would be firing blanks and one was found in the staging area on the Dyck property. It was .45-70 blank Benet primed cartridge case. The collection of artifacts found during the construction can be found in A Good Walk Around the Boundary by Douglas Scott and Peter Bleed.
Either HR believes that investigators would be confused by a blank cases and he ignores the fact that 4 carbines identified by tool marked cases on BRE and the Calhoun area. It is a joke that archeologists can determine the difference between 1976 cases and blank cases.
Regards
Steve
In a week or so Douglas Scott will be making a presentation about Ford Ds at the CBHMA meeting in Hardin MT . It will be published. I don't know the content but if they found nothing it would be a short paper.
On Saturday June 17 at 10 a.m. Michael Donohue will make a presentation in Billings about recent archaeological findings near Ford D on the Little Bighorn that corroborate battle accounts given by John Stands In Timber. I'm not going to hold my breath but hope that such long awaited corroboration gets 6pm news coverage, nationally. Had the Scott/Bleed investigation on Dyck's land (where he wanted to build a museum for his collection) been conclusive or even mildly confirmative, then I would not have the problems which I do with Ford D theory. It may be an interesting tactical situation to attempt to unravel but the markers do not do that. The 246 markers placed by Sweet, indicate 'his' battle theory - outlined in the report he made of the marker placements and his theory of the battle that resulted in their placement. It is interesting to compare Sweet's 1890 report with Godfrey's 1892 account of the battle.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 4, 2023 1:46:40 GMT
The Crow have taken us to where they believe Custer was shot at the timber. Southern Cheyenne came to battlefield and showed us where they were told Custer was shot. It is same area which is the same location the Crow took us to. They don't each other and live hundreds of miles apart. The Southern Cheyenne and Southern Arapaho were there along with the Sacred Arrows. Regards AZ Ranger This doesn't really help my mental picture. It's fine that the Crow and Cheyanne took you to the same spot in "the timber" but what timber are we talking about. I confess when I here "timber" I think of the position Reno occupied before staging a breakout whether it was by luck or planning. There is a wooded area on both sides of Ford B. There is a wooded area on both sides of the current watercourse by the interstate bridge, but if the river was flowing further North I am not sure how I would try to cross. I don't really buy Custer was killed anywhere but at LSH and I also don't think anyone recognized Custer until after the battle. As I understand his wounds, the chest wound would possibly not be immediately fatal but the head would would be. I think I read that they found his distinctive cartridges under his body, if so that would indicate he was still alive at the time. In spite of leave no man behind today, I don't think that was as much in the culture of the time.
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Post by miker on Jul 4, 2023 1:52:00 GMT
Thanks Steve.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 4, 2023 1:59:27 GMT
HR Those pictures you refer to are not Ford Ds. Those soldiers were bivouacked at Crow Agency and rode across to the old entrance road which is across from the current Custer Battlefield Trading Post. They were also not on BRE where the 10 carbines were identified along with Indian cases. I guess you think there were Indians firing at them since there is also an Indian site just outside the boundary fence at the old entrance road. That should have made the newspaper. Indians firing at soldiers who would ride onto the battlefield years after the battle. The Cheyenne have accounts that date to 1876 participants which you convenient ignore. Those kneeling infantry soldiers were placed on Cemetery Ridge by an Indian participant. That participant was there on June 25, 1876. He positioned them on Cemetery Ridge firing toward BRE where the Indian artifacts were found and toward LSH. Regards AZ Ranger AZR, The two Barry images from 1886, you refer to are ( I never mentioned Barry )(I refer to comments made by Michael Donahue regarding kneeling soldiers placed on Cemetery Ridge and firing in two directions)posed images by men of 5th Infantry, commanded by Frank D. Baldwin. It was at this gathering that Gall indicated his role in the fighting to Edward S. Godfrey in sign talk, gave interviews published by 'The Pioneer Press' and David F. Barry (published by Usher L. Burdick). Barry also had Baldwin pose troops in skirmish lines for the two images, as directed by Gall. Gall was Hunkpapa Sioux. Richard Fox accepted brief on the ground assessment of one image for 'Where Custer Fell', without any proper corroboration which in conjuction with his complete misreading of 7th Infantry's Capt. Freeman's sketch of the battle, drawn at the time, on the ground, 27th June 1876; to indicate troops west of LSH. Fox so wanted it to be that he made it so. Doesn't mean it is reality. So, the images were taken early morning I learnt from years of interest. The terrain is repetitious across 360°. I have discussed and studied the images for a very long time - decades. With a frequent battlefield visitor, I thought the location had been pinned down as Fox and others gave but, there is a difficulty with the images being taken early in the day. The sun rises in the east. That's a very simple issue with images that show shadows. The other image is of a skirmish position on the west flanks of North Medicine Tail (Deep Coulee) and I can show this below. The other one taken as being west of LSH ' isn't' - if the image was taken morning time. Good luck with your investigations but as i've said to you before, that ford D land used to belong to the Custer scout Curley. He built his cabin there and lived with his family. He was a Sheriff or policeman at the Crow Agency. If he was saying, yup, Custer crossed the river down here - then fine. He never did. He took his pony herd across those fords daily all his life to let them graze on the Custer Battlefield. He was there 25th June 1876, and lived on the fords the rest of his life. The skirmishers are along the retreat route from Greasy Grass Hill up to Calhoun. I think that that is Donovan in the modern image. Regards. The photos I refer to are the mounted soldiers that you say came from the Ford D. Where they came from and where they went still stands as I stated. You also have stated that Deep Coulee (North MTC) is a fork of MTC. It is not. You don't know what you are talking about. From another board BigB was at the battlefield when I was their and he now knows you are not telling the truth.
Using yourself to support yourself doesn't help.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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azranger
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Ranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 4, 2023 2:17:05 GMT
Mike
Sorry for the confusion. I have been in discussions with HR forever and his belief that the soldiers were not north of Last Stand Hill. HR posts all these pictures from the anniversaries. The cavalry rode across Highway 8 and staged to the north of administrative site on private land. From there they rode onto the battlefield in front of the hundreds of the visitors that were there for the event. They would not be firing the copper guilded cases that were used in 1876. They would be firing blanks and one was found in the staging area on the Dyck property. It was .45-70 blank Benet primed cartridge case. The collection of artifacts found during the construction can be found in A Good Walk Around the Boundary by Douglas Scott and Peter Bleed.
Either HR believes that investigators would be confused by a blank cases and he ignores the fact that 4 carbines identified by tool marked cases on BRE and the Calhoun area. It is a joke that archeologists can determine the difference between 1976 cases and blank cases.
Regards
Steve
In a week or so Douglas Scott will be making a presentation about Ford Ds at the CBHMA meeting in Hardin MT . It will be published. I don't know the content but if they found nothing it would be a short paper.
On Saturday June 17 at 10 a.m. Michael Donohue will make a presentation in Billings about recent archaeological findings near Ford D on the Little Bighorn that corroborate battle accounts given by John Stands In Timber. I'm not going to hold my breath but hope that such long awaited corroboration gets 6pm news coverage, nationally. Had the Scott/Bleed investigation on Dyck's land (where he wanted to build a museum for his collection) been conclusive or even mildly confirmative, then I would not have the problems which I do with Ford D theory. It may be an interesting tactical situation to attempt to unravel but the markers do not do that. The 246 markers placed by Sweet, indicate 'his' battle theory - outlined in the report he made of the marker placements and his theory of the battle that resulted in their placement. It is interesting to compare Sweet's 1890 report with Godfrey's 1892 account of the battle. HR
You value your opinion way to much. You don't hold a candle to Douglas Scott or Michael Donahue. You believe that Benteen went all the way to the river and was on the left side of Reno. You state the town of Benteen is proof. There is no town of Benteen in the list of Montana incorporated towns and cites. Benteen is an area more like a subdivision.
Any person who can ride a horse or know their rate of travel would know what you say is impossible. Benteen was in Reno Creek between Custer and the pack train. There is no way to do that and go the river as you suggest.
If you think that is an endorsement of Sweet you are saying he is a fraud. You think he placed the spurious markers to make up or reinforce his own battle theory. We all know that there only approximately 210 soldiers with Custer and you state "markers placed by Sweet, indicate his theory of the battle that resulted in their placement" .
Regards
AZ Ranger
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 4, 2023 6:36:50 GMT
There is a nice data set with nearby correlations here and similar stuff link . I haven't a clue which surveys Camp relied upon or whether he made his own. Remind me, what was his day job? ps Calhoun Hill is the dominant high ground and not Last Stand Hill. Standing on Calhoun Hill my memory is that the ridge rises beyond it as you go North. AZ will, I am sure, check this memory for me.
Cheers
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