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Post by yanmacca on Jun 8, 2023 16:24:12 GMT
He has quite a bit to say Ian Well Mac, White Shield is someone who we would term as "all mouth and trousers"
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Jun 8, 2023 17:45:15 GMT
I shall only hit one part of White Shield's extensive account to Grinnell (1908) because I am too lazy to repeat this stuff. He was at the Northern Valley and there can be no mistake.
"All the soldiers retreated back from the river; but the Grey Horse Company stood their ground. The Grey Horse Company stood where the monument is now."
At the monument from Ford B. No way.
Cheers
There is a time displacement. That is, from the area of the initial contacts across from the camp (I assume that you locate it opposite the area of the DeepMTC divide) White Shield moved west towards north and the Greasy Grass Ridge area, perhaps threatening Greasy Grass Hill. Timing intrigues a few here but I don't see it. Cheyennes stayed between the troops in the Greasy Grass Hill area until they pulled back and swarmed the retreat onto Finley Hill. The Cheyenne route from the valley across the river ran over Finley, along Greasy Grass Ridge and Calhoun Coulee along the trail of markers. This is clearly described in accounts and there is even a map by Cheyenne Big Beaver showing it. I understand the valley fight to have been brief and Custer's command to have progressed no further than North Medicine Tail by the time the valley retreat reached the heights. I see that Custer had the problem of actually seeing into the valley from MTC, Luce, and NC ridges and anywhere on that terrain other than Greasy Grass Hill or Calhoun Hill. The retreat from the valley occured quickly enough, and without warning, that Custer's companies were forced onto the defensive as soon as it was understood Reno had pulled out. Had Custer repeated the tactics of his Washita assault, then I could work a reasonable timing for the scenario and related events but it is a pipe dream idea - Why would Custer do it without telling his subordinates upon whom it entirely relied. It's sort of Patton without the M* radio cars passing out his instructions.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 8, 2023 18:06:45 GMT
He has quite a bit to say Ian Well Mac, White Shield is someone who we would term as "all mouth and trousers"
Ian
I doubt that is realistic assessment of the guy, Ian but you go argue it link . The Cheyenne trusted Grinnell, who if I remember, was able to speak a little in their tongue and spent time with them understood to be a man of peace. His wife has a place in US History beside him link . Those with interest in the battle's minutae, might care to research the Audobon family's link's to M.W. Keogh. White Shield's tales of fighting Crook at the Rosebud might be a little far-fetched for a 17-18 year old but then again maybe not. He was expected to do something or come home on his shield, so to speak; by his father Spotted Wolf and it seems that the father was a head banger of some note and especially revered by his tribe after the Custer battle. There's waffle and there's waffle but there was another son and an adopted son and it seems they were ALL berserkers. The adopted boy was Yellow Nose..... the one who drew the picture of himself taking Custer's battleflag. It was the only one. He would never have been able to draw it unless he was there. Whether he took it is moot but the entire tribe knew he took a flag and the one he drew himself riding around with was Custer's battleflag. White Shield mentioned that and where it happened. I did wonder long time, why Grinnell called his book, 'The Fighting Cheyennes'? Eventually, I concluded that he must have had a chat or two with Little Wolf. I think that White Shield went with Little Wolf..... and came back with him. So did Big Beaver..... well...... at least they were all in prison together. Drawing pictograms.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 10, 2023 13:33:45 GMT
Well Mac, White Shield is someone who we would term as "all mouth and trousers"
Ian
I doubt that is realistic assessment of the guy, Ian but you go argue it Sorry HR, that would take an hour or so of my life which I wont get back
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Jun 10, 2023 15:13:13 GMT
I doubt that is realistic assessment of the guy, Ian but you go argue it Sorry HR, that would take an hour or so of my life which I wont get back
Ian
I'm perfectly happy to dig him up, for you.
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Jun 11, 2023 7:52:24 GMT
I shall only hit one part of White Shield's extensive account to Grinnell (1908) because I am too lazy to repeat this stuff. He was at the Northern Valley and there can be no mistake.
"All the soldiers retreated back from the river; but the Grey Horse Company stood their ground. The Grey Horse Company stood where the monument is now."
At the monument from Ford B. No way.
Cheers
There is a time displacement. That is, from the area of the initial contacts across from the camp (I assume that you locate it opposite the area of the DeepMTC divide) White Shield moved west towards north and the Greasy Grass Ridge area, perhaps threatening Greasy Grass Hill. Timing intrigues a few here but I don't see it. Cheyennes stayed between the troops in the Greasy Grass Hill area until they pulled back and swarmed the retreat onto Finley Hill. The Cheyenne route from the valley across the river ran over Finley, along Greasy Grass Ridge and Calhoun Coulee along the trail of markers. This is clearly described in accounts and there is even a map by Cheyenne Big Beaver showing it. I understand the valley fight to have been brief and Custer's command to have progressed no further than North Medicine Tail by the time the valley retreat reached the heights. I see that Custer had the problem of actually seeing into the valley from MTC, Luce, and NC ridges and anywhere on that terrain other than Greasy Grass Hill or Calhoun Hill. The retreat from the valley occured quickly enough, and without warning, that Custer's companies were forced onto the defensive as soon as it was understood Reno had pulled out. Had Custer repeated the tactics of his Washita assault, then I could work a reasonable timing for the scenario and related events but it is a pipe dream idea - Why would Custer do it without telling his subordinates upon whom it entirely relied. It's sort of Patton without the M* radio cars passing out his instructions. Consider the archaeology and this is (perish the thought) a dead duck. Cheers
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 13:02:41 GMT
There is a time displacement. That is, from the area of the initial contacts across from the camp (I assume that you locate it opposite the area of the DeepMTC divide) White Shield moved west towards north and the Greasy Grass Ridge area, perhaps threatening Greasy Grass Hill. Timing intrigues a few here but I don't see it. Cheyennes stayed between the troops in the Greasy Grass Hill area until they pulled back and swarmed the retreat onto Finley Hill. The Cheyenne route from the valley across the river ran over Finley, along Greasy Grass Ridge and Calhoun Coulee along the trail of markers. This is clearly described in accounts and there is even a map by Cheyenne Big Beaver showing it. I understand the valley fight to have been brief and Custer's command to have progressed no further than North Medicine Tail by the time the valley retreat reached the heights. I see that Custer had the problem of actually seeing into the valley from MTC, Luce, and NC ridges and anywhere on that terrain other than Greasy Grass Hill or Calhoun Hill. The retreat from the valley occured quickly enough, and without warning, that Custer's companies were forced onto the defensive as soon as it was understood Reno had pulled out. Had Custer repeated the tactics of his Washita assault, then I could work a reasonable timing for the scenario and related events but it is a pipe dream idea - Why would Custer do it without telling his subordinates upon whom it entirely relied. It's sort of Patton without the M* radio cars passing out his instructions. Consider the archaeology and this is (perish the thought) a dead duck. Cheers
A lot of thought has gone into the ford D angles recently, ideas which emerged and floated down the river since 1926 in essence and more practically, 1956 when John talked with Jesse and Don. This concept of events and theory had eluded everyone on a broad front for eighty years and raised up in kilroyesque fashion as new ideas and thinking flooded into the Visitor's Center under Rickey's elaborations of the story. If this continues then I fear that future generations may arrive looking for Mount Olive and wooden cups. Reno's engagement in the valley was brief, his flight was earnest, and the battalions downriver of the ascent, were abandoned to their fate. You would do the same in Reno's situation.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 13:13:58 GMT
I can offer a fine and possibly unique example of When to Quit with XX Corps, September 1944.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 13:31:09 GMT
In 1947, Edwin Luce, Superintendent of Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument, experimented with a World War II-era mine detector in order to find battle-related artifacts within the park undertaken by Robert M. Utley. link I quote Utley, ' I have lived with General Custer and his friends and enemies for a full generation. Every time I have written about the Battle of the Little Bighorn, I have told a different story than before.'
Luce’s experiment failed, probably because the complexity of tuning this early type of metal detector made it inadequate to find small items, such as cartridge cases and bullets. Beginning in 1956, National Park Service (NPS) historian Don G. Rickey, one of the leading experts on the Plains Indian wars, teamed up with archaeologist Jesse Vaughn to initiate a multi-year metal detection program at Little Bighorn Battlefield. Using a more technologically advanced metal detector than the one used in 1947, Rickey and Vaughn identified a pattern of cartridge cases deposited along the soldiers’ perimeter line at the Reno-Benteen defensive position. During ensuing years, they identified eight concentrations of cartridge cases that reflected the positions held by Lakota and Sioux warriors engaged in the attack on the Reno-Benteen position (Greene 1986:32). This metal-detection survey project continued within the park until 1964 and resulted in a revised interpretation of battlefield events. Digging history There are a number of reasons confounding discovery of evidence of 7th Cavalry on Ford D territory at Little Bighorn, principal of which is that they weren't there on 25th June, 1876. They were 50 years later and filmed doing it.
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Post by miker on Jun 11, 2023 15:12:54 GMT
Digging history There are a number of reasons confounding discovery of evidence of 7th Cavalry on Ford D territory at Little Bighorn, principal of which is that they weren't there on 25th June, 1876. They were 50 years later and filmed doing it. Nice Hero. Nice.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jun 11, 2023 16:05:54 GMT
HR
Those pictures you refer to are not Ford Ds. Those soldiers were bivouacked at Crow Agency and rode across to the old entrance road which is across from the current Custer Battlefield Trading Post. They were also not on BRE where the 10 carbines were identified along with Indian cases. I guess you think there were Indians firing at them since there is also an Indian site just outside the boundary fence at the old entrance road. That should have made the newspaper. Indians firing at soldiers who would ride onto the battlefield years after the battle.
The Cheyenne have accounts that date to 1876 participants which you convenient ignore. Those kneeling infantry soldiers were placed on Cemetery Ridge by an Indian participant. That participant was there on June 25, 1876. He positioned them on Cemetery Ridge firing toward BRE where the Indian artifacts were found and toward LSH.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by miker on Jun 11, 2023 16:14:11 GMT
Now I am confused about what pictures we are talking about. The infantry soldiers are Cemetery Ridge are obviously not near Ford D. I probably don't know what pictures HR was talking about. I thought there were pictures of the 7th moving across Ford B during the 10 year reunion (perhaps later) where Godfrey buried the hatchet.
Are there pictures of troops moving across Ford D from anytime (obviously not during the battle.)
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 11, 2023 16:15:57 GMT
The Crow have taken us to where they believe Custer was shot at the timber. Southern Cheyenne came to battlefield and showed us where they were told Custer was shot. It is same area which is the same location the Crow took us to. They don't each other and live hundreds of miles apart. The Southern Cheyenne and Southern Arapaho were there along with the Sacred Arrows.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 11, 2023 16:43:30 GMT
Now I am confused about what pictures we are talking about. The infantry soldiers are Cemetery Ridge are obviously not near Ford D. I probably don't know what pictures HR was talking about. I thought there were pictures of the 7th moving across Ford B during the 10 year reunion (perhaps later) where Godfrey buried the hatchet. Are there pictures of troops moving across Ford D from anytime (obviously not during the battle.) Mike
Sorry for the confusion. I have been in discussions with HR forever and his belief that the soldiers were not north of Last Stand Hill. HR posts all these pictures from the anniversaries. The cavalry rode across Highway 8 and staged to the north of administrative site on private land. From there they rode onto the battlefield in front of the hundreds of the visitors that were there for the event. They would not be firing the copper guilded cases that were used in 1876. They would be firing blanks and one was found in the staging area on the Dyck property. It was .45-70 blank Benet primed cartridge case. The collection of artifacts found during the construction can be found in A Good Walk Around the Boundary by Douglas Scott and Peter Bleed.
Either HR believes that investigators would be confused by a blank cases and he ignores the fact that 4 carbines identified by tool marked cases on BRE and the Calhoun area. It is a joke that archeologists can determine the difference between 1976 cases and blank cases.
Regards
Steve
In a week or so Douglas Scott will be making a presentation about Ford Ds at the CBHMA meeting in Hardin MT . It will be published. I don't know the content but if they found nothing it would be a short paper.
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Post by miker on Jun 11, 2023 16:57:32 GMT
Thanks Steve. I think that helps me out. I have A Good Walk Around the Boundary. Thanks for the info on Scott's presentation.
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