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Post by johnson1941 on May 23, 2023 12:45:42 GMT
Thanks for the kind words QC, at this point I am just trying to catch up on, and be aware of, primary sources...without feeling saturated too often! No theories, but trying to find the 'facts', such as they are. (I should keep a notebook reading all this stuff - but I dont). Harper's Appendices for like $3 on kindle is a great find!
As for Benteen and HIS stories, he also states in his after action report that "...I had then gone about fully ten miles; the ground was terribly hard on horses, so I determined to carry out the other instructions, which were, that if in my judgment there was nothing to be seen of Indians, Valleys &c., in the direction I was going, to return with the battalion to the trail the command was following."
While at the RCOI...
"I thought it was my duty to go back to the trail and join the command...
Q. State for what reason you returned from the direction you had been sent . A. Because I thought I would be needed at the ridge .
Q. You acted on your own judgment in returning to the point where you met Major Reno? A. Entirely. ... Q. State whether or not In bearing to the right to strike the main trail you complied with the instructions he had given you . A. It was scarcely a compliance. Q. Did you consider it a violation of his instructions ? A. I must say I did. ... And Re HIS impressions... "My impressions from Trumpeter Martin were that the Indians were skedaddling." ... "His language conveyed the impression to me that they were in possession of the village, that the Indians were all skedaddling, to use his own words."
So Benteen is very interesting as well.
Martin, via Camp, 1908...
"Martin says when he gave message to Benteen Benteen asked: "Where is Genl. Custer. " Martin said: "About 3 miles from here. " Benteen said is being attacked or not and Martin said: Yes, is being attacked" and said no more. Martin is positive that he did not tell Benteen and that Indians were "skiddaddling. "
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Post by miker on May 23, 2023 14:31:23 GMT
Most interesting. I have not read Camp, but I do find I overlooked that quote in another book and found it after reading the above. Thanks for calling it to my attention.
Many question Martini's reliability.
So Martini denies saying the Indian's were skedaddling but also says Custer was being attacked?
My understanding is Martini was sent back to Benteen before they got to the vicinity of Weir Peak and certainly before the skirmish lines appear to be formed in the vicinity of Nye-Cartwright Ridge while the possible reconnaissance of Ford B was conducted. I do not think Custer had been attacked when Martini was sent back.
The RCOI does not seem to report that Martini said anything about Custer being attacked:
Q. Did you say anything to Captain Benteen about what you had seen in the bottom? A. Captain Benteen asked me where General Custer was. I said I supposed that by that time he had made a charge through the village and that was all I said.
Hunt, Brian V.. Reno Court of Inquiry: Conduct at the Battle of the Little Bighorn (Expanded, Annotated) (p. 369). BIG BYTE BOOKS. Kindle Edition.
Q. What was that order? A. It has no date, it says: “Benteen, come on, big village, be quick, bring packs. P.S. Bring packs. W. W. Cooke.” Q. At that point where you met Trumpeter Martin, can you state how far it was from the Little Big Horn River? A. It was about 2 miles from where Major Reno first crossed. Q. How far was it from that tepee? A. It was about 2 1/2 miles from the tepee that I met Martin. Q. Did you then know whose trail you were following? A. I did not. I will state here that Trumpeter Martin, after giving me that note, I asked him about this village. He said the Indians were all skedaddling, therefore there was less necessity for me going back for the packs.
Hunt, Brian V.. Reno Court of Inquiry: Conduct at the Battle of the Little Bighorn (Expanded, Annotated) (p. 19). BIG BYTE BOOKS. Kindle Edition.
Martini said he say children playing and that the village was quiet.
This seems to contradict Martini's statement in Camp of Custer being attacked and instead seems to indicate Custer is attacking.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 23, 2023 15:25:42 GMT
Cheers, Mike!
Martin again, via Camp...there are a few PDF transcripts of this Camp & other related stuff (Kanipe Crow Nest etc) out there,...I will try to locate them again.
"Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it - Hunk and Blackfoot villages - W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village. About half way down to Little Bighorn we came into full view of thevillage (The first time he had seen south end of it - W. M. C.) and here he halted the command and Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen and I started back with it on the trail." ... "I showed (on June 27) Benteen where I left with note from Custer and Benteen estimated the distance to be 600 yards to Ford B." ... "When I got up on the elevation I looked behind and saw Custer's command over on the flat and Indians over in the village riding toward the river and waving buffalo hides (ha ha - QC hates this!). The battalion appeared at this time to be falling back from the river."
"At the same time he saw Custer retreating up the open country in the direction of the battlefield. (He did not tell this at the Reno court of inquiry because he was not asked the question. He thinks that in Reno court of inquiry it was not desired that he should tell all he knew and said that afterward he never was invited by officers to discuss what he knew of the battle and never volunteered to do so.)"
Yep - definitely at odds with what he told the RCOI...the "...supposed that by that time he had made a charge through the village" BIG difference from seeing a retreat!
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2023 16:08:57 GMT
What we have here is the Fog and Friction of War Gentleman, as Clausewitz told us in his monumental work. Simply a case of what Freidank in the 13th Century, and Shakespeare remined us of a little later - "For want of a nail"
The note was a stinker. Martini's lack of command of the English language compounded the situation. EXCREMENT HAPPENS, and orders get confused, misunderstandings occur, people take wrong turns, and people die when EXCREMENT HAPPENS. But you had better damned well get used to it because it will continue to happen until swords are turned into plowshares, and peace and goodwill reigns among all men.
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Post by miker on May 23, 2023 16:55:26 GMT
Well, here's the rub. Just where were people when the message was sent. For the moment, let us take Wagner's view of the situation as shown on the attached map. Custer has gone to 3411 (or perhaps 3413, which I like) and then sends Martini. Thus, the unit has not yet reached Weir Point/Peak/Hill, but even if they had, they still have not made contact, but according to reports from the people who have been there, the village can be seen from 3411, 3413, and Weir Point. Martini's statement of "charging" is a reasonable assumption, which may or may not have been beyond his ability to reason. I think Weir Point and the steepness of the Bluffs would obscure any reasonable position from having line of sight to see what Custer is doing, but we know that there was fire from Custer with units on Nye-Cartwright and some elements, probably heading toward or from Ford B, after which time they all headed to Calhoun Hill. None of these could be characterized as a retreat and in my mind's eye, this looks like a Movement to Contact or an Attack, though not a Charge. One learns to answer the question and not provide unasked for information. e.g. "Did you see the person in question?" "Yes." "Would you care to elaborate?" "No." Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2023 18:09:27 GMT
This is so refreshing. Two guys discussing the subject matter with what appears to be no preconceived notions, completely open minds, and little time for horse shit. Almost as good as listening to Carmen at the Met, or Bob Wills and Tommy Duncan having their way with Spanish Two Step and San Antonio Rose.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 23, 2023 18:48:37 GMT
Martin is at least fairly consistent when he got the message - though later on it seems he figured it took place (much?) closer to the river, but without scaling stuff I'm not sure of the distances involved myself....... RCOI "We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below he told his Adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen." After I started from Gen. Custer to go back I travelled 5 or GOO yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where general Custer see the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged." .. re Camp: "Then command 'Attention" Fours right" "Column Right" "March" was given and command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek. Martin thinks he continued about 1/2 mile farther when Cooke halted and wrote message to Benteen" "...showed (on June 27) Benteen where I left with note from Custer and Benteen estimated the distance to be 600 yards to Ford B." Interesting that Martin SAYS he sees Reno engaged in the Valley, roughly the time he SAYS he saw Custer pulling back from the river...but the Indians havent even corralled Reno yet - so Gall et. al. arent the ones pushing Custer back...yay Roan Bear, White cow Bull & Bobtailed Horse!.. "While I {White Shield} was dressing myself and telling my mother which way she should go, I looked back and saw soldiers in seven groups (companies). One company could be seen a long way off [because] the horses were pretty white. I turned to go toward Custer, but some Indians had already seen Custer and were going toward him with others from the camps. I went around and came in below, though the company was coming fast, making for the Little Bighorn. Near me I could see only Roan Bear, Bobtail Horse and one other man...." "When word of Reno's attack on the Hunkpapa end of the village swept the Cheyenne camp, White Cow Bull watched Cheyenne war chief Two Moon lead his men out to meet the American attackers "at a gallop," but neither he nor Roan Bear joined the departing warriors because of Roan Bear's duty to guard the Sacred Buffalo Head. The two of them had just "settled down to telling each other some of our brave deeds in the past" when another alarm ran through the camp, this time announcing that the Americans were charging to attack the village at Medicine Tail Coulee across the river from the Cheyenne camp...Happily considering themselves free to join the fight against this immediate threat, White Cow Bull and Roan Bear ran to the river, where they found Bobtailed Horse, White Shield, Calf and a couple other warriors, most without guns." "THE CHEYENNE camp was all but deserted. A bare handful of oldsters, too feeble to get away under their own power, was left behind in the shadows of the silent lodges. A few mangy dogs, sensing danger, cowered at their feet..." (Bobtailed camp sounds like Martin's discription!) www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/bobtailed_horse_little_big_horn.htmlwww.astonisher.com/archives/museum/white_cow_bull_little_big_horn.htmlwww.astonisher.com/archives/museum/white_shield_big_horn.html
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Post by johnson1941 on May 23, 2023 18:53:16 GMT
Shoot - apologize as this has less to do about Custer's movement north and more about MTC.
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2023 18:59:59 GMT
No apology necessary. This board is all about finding what is most likely true, and it's not limited geography or event. The truth is where you find it.
Medicine Tail Coulee and Ford is vital information regarding the northward movement. Where Custer crossed, did he cross or go down, are all EEI (essential elements of information) to what happened on that journey. Where Martini left Custer, Benteen's ability to estimate 600 yards (or lack thereof), the location of the skirmish with Wolf Tooth, how many companies were on that skirmish line, was the SL mounted or dismounted, were there several SL's or just one big one, all add to the story and increase understanding.
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Post by miker on May 23, 2023 19:46:24 GMT
So looking at the map I posted there is no "high place" from which a column right followed by a column left makes sense to me.
From Weir Point, column right takes you down the ridge and then column left into the draw following the line labeled Martini...nowhere near Ford B.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 24, 2023 11:00:24 GMT
I thought Martin said they went right into Cedar(?) and then left into MTC. If you are moving parallel to the river seems to make sense.
"CUSTER FIRST halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village...Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village."
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Post by miker on May 24, 2023 13:20:38 GMT
The attachment shows a likely route for Custer to have moved to the North. I don't claim the map is correct or my drawing is correct. The map is Wagner's opinion and the drawing is mine. He goes up the right side of the ridge past Reno's future postion and stops around there. Along the way he decides he wants the trains to come up and sends back SGT Kanipe (who also does not return). He is thus below the crest of the ridge to avoid detection. He goes up to 3411 (or maybe 3413 shown on other maps), observes the village and returns to the column (dotted line). He dispatches Martini as indicated on Wagner's map. I flat out do not believe Custer would take the whole battalion up to Weir Point and almost assured detection, if he had not already been found. Custer continues along the route and takes another excursion up to Weir Point and returns (2nd dotted line). The unit proceed into MTC and Custer appears to order 2 companies to the river (light Blue line) while 3 companies move up toward Nye-Cartwright Ridge (Dark Blue line). Many people, not just Martini, had a very hard time ascertaining time and distance along the route because the terrain can be very deceptive and there is a knack to understanding how we perceive distance when looking downhill or uphill. The red half circle is 1/2 mile from the Ford. There does not appear to be any reasonable place from which Martini would have been dispatched so late to be within 600 yards. When people say "that ridge" it has no meaning unless (1) you are looking at the ridge in question and the person points at it (as in the Movie Gettysburg where Lee points out the copse of trees to Longstreet), or (2) he points to it on a map and marks it, (3) gives a compass bearing, or (4) drives a sign into the ground (saying "attack this ridge"). The appearance of the terrain changes as you move. (This may have done in the Charge of the Light Brigade.) Couple that with the "Army" North and "Indian" North and you have no idea where a person is and which way he is looking. People who have observed the terrain in question can provide their view of what is where.
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Post by quincannon on May 24, 2023 17:41:51 GMT
41: If he turned left out of Cedar Coulee into Medicine Tail Coulee you must then account for the elongated W near the top of the western face of Ny-Cartwright-East-Blummer Ridges. There is evidence of a skirmish line there that looks like a W that someone is trying to stretch
I agree with Mike that terrain is very hard to judge as you traverse over it and measuring distance accurately is pretty darn hard too unless you have some aid to do so.
I am pretty well convinced that BM 3413 is where someone on the bluffs was seen by some in the valley. By this I am primarily referring to the DeRudio reported sighting, and not the sighting of Company E. Company E was in my view sighted near what became the Reno defensive position and that sighting was somewhat earlier that those persons assumed to be Custer.
I can flat guarantee that whomever was seen at the edge of the bluffs that the whole battalion was nowhere near where those folks were seen. Guarantee mind you, no hesitation at all.
I think it is well to keep in mind that viewing the valley from the BM 3411 position is a Wagner invention. I have no doubt Fred went to his grave feeling he was correct. I believe though that if Fred had Mike's enhanced map for his observations he would have then concluded, as I have, that BM 3413 was the proper place. The long and short of it is that it is just a much better place, although you still could not see the total encampment as it extended into the Cheyenne area, and a view of Ford B is blocked by terrain, between BM3413 and the ford.
This discussion is getting interesting, but I still have an M1A1 to finish.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 24, 2023 18:47:51 GMT
You talking a Tank right? Not a rifle/carbine?? Cool either way! Yep - the Nye-cartwright findings are part of my 1st dilema. (2nd would be Ford B vs Ford D vs. ). Fairly typical it seems! As we've mentioned - squaring companies being up there with the various sightings/trail on the Bluffs. Somewhere I read the notion of companies being up there covering the scout to the Ford. Also skirmishing with Wolf Tooth indians and/or better yet Gall et. al. (martin wouldn't have seen this)... "He (Red Hawk) says when the Indians all got together they went down from this point, or hill and met the first division of these soldiers and they fought this back to the second division [perhaps on Blummer/Nye/Cartwright Ridge - Harper]; from that they drove the two divisions back to the first(?) division...The Indians forced the troopers back to where the first stand was made on Calhoun Hill" Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography (p. 1549). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
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Post by quincannon on May 24, 2023 19:09:56 GMT
Yes fairly typical for all of us I fear.
"Covering a scout to the ford" Couple of things to consider here. 1) Assuming you mean scout to Ford B, the idea of a covering element is doctrinally correct, however: 2) The distance from those ridges to the ford is too great to properly fit into the parameters of doctrine.
I think skirmishing with Wolf Tooth's fellows is probably the correct answer for the artifact evidence, BUT, more and more I am looking at what Mike postulates that Gall, Red Hawk and a bazillion of their nearest and dearest were driving those three companies northward coming up from their rear. Have not quite bought that one yet at least the way Mike lays it out, but I'm still thinking it possible. The one thing that troubles me about Mike's version of things is the fact that there is evidence of what I presume to be a Company L skirmish line at the base of Calhoun Hill. There is another half way up the hill too but I have no issue with that as it relates to Mike's story. Calhoun was a very experienced Infantryman, before George brough him into the family fold, and the last thing an Infantryman or anyone with an ounce of common sense would do is set a skirmish line up in a depression, unless that depression was the point of contact in a meeting engagement. Were it that you set your line up, give the other fellow a bloody nose, and get out of there as fast as you can. It's called developing the situation in military speak. That skirmish line located there tells me two forces were heading toward each other. Had it been one force in pursuit of the other the skirmish line would have been further up the hill not at the bottom. Also, if you are familiar with Wagner's work he has L, sitting on the lower battle ridge area for some time, 15 or more minutes, without being engaged. Again, assuming they were preparing to defend themselves, the last place you set up is in a hole facing uphill to Henryville.
M1A1 is done except for painting the tail lights. Watching paint dry is one of my favorite pass times these days.
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