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Post by yanmacca on May 19, 2023 13:22:29 GMT
Well that is where the old theory of leaving Keogh behind comes from, that allowed him the freedom to head off the fleeing nocoms with yates and Smith. No matter which way you take this, it always comes back to old ideas, that's why we have two camps, one with the idle Keogh on battle ridge and the other all five north.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2023 14:24:04 GMT
I think both of you are missing the point here.
Ian is describing an untrained shoddy unit not prepared for combat operations. If what you state Ian is accurate and I have no doubt that it is, then these people had no business in the field about to engage Indians of any size or composition. TRAINING, is not only to prepare a soldier for the tactical and technical skills required in battle, but to emotionally bolster the soldier to do what needs doing in the face of the adversity of battle. When confronted with situations like Custer, Cooke, and the others found themselves you fall back on that training. Haste is not the same as being in a hurry. Haste makes waste. It fosters overlooking the importance of those things that are important. In short, well trained soldiers, and especially officers must be able to do things in a hurry, not haste, and do it the same, complete way they would do it in their own living room sitting by the fireside with a glass from one of the better Glens while smoking a very good cigar. In combat you fall back on your training, and it will carry you through the rough spots. Training is also meant to control fear. If you are confident in yourself and in your training the fear is diminished. It never goes away, but it is under control.
May I suggest you read about Task Force Smith at Osan, Korea in July 1950. It is the exact same situation that was confronted at LBH. Nearly every problem Brad Smith had, Custer had. The documentation on that action is pretty darn complete, and it will give you some very good insights into LBH.
And Mac that problem of yours will continue until the end of time, because no one knows or can know.
Again Cooke in his haste wrote out the note, but did not tell Martini to return despite the hazards. Cooke had no way then to know if his message was received and understood, and most importantly would be complied with. Additionally Cooke was sending Benten a courier who was from Benteen's own company, and presumably Benteen would be aware of the language shortcomings of his own trumpeter.
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Post by yanmacca on May 19, 2023 20:14:09 GMT
QC; a lot of these soldiers probably didn't want to even be there, true you would have a hard core of seasoned men who have steel nerves, but a lot of men wouldn't feel happy about their position. Custer may have just shouted out the makings of the note to cooke, he then scribbled the basics down, but in regards to ordering Martini to return well, he did the right thing in my book, Martini would not get through, so it was like "operation certain death" to order him to return. Custer was going in the oposit direction to Martini, he would have to follow Custers trail for miles through hostile country to return.
Ian
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Post by miker on May 19, 2023 22:45:48 GMT
Well, to be fair, Cooke said return if there is no danger. But this is also why you should send 2 messengers, just in case ...
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2023 23:24:46 GMT
When you take the king's shilling Ian, you take all that comes with it. If they did not want to be there, then they should not have put on a blue suit. That said, it was their superior's responsibility to train them to the point where they were fit for battle in all respects. Frankly, excuses like I'm scared don't cut it with me. Training manages fear, and their superiors failed to train. There is no such thing as nerves of steel. There is such a thing as harder than actual combat training which makes it appear as if your nerves are made of cast iron.
Are you saying that because danger existed you condone shirking the responsibility to give a Roger Wilco to Cooke's message? I certainly hope not considering that communication is a two way street. Assumption in some things is the playground of fools. Custer or Cooke ASSUMING that Martini would get through, and that Benteen would understand and comply in some measure with that note was also the action of fools. The foolish thing was that thinking Benteen was coming up, and proceeding north on their merry way, without some verification of the same is what we should be throwing brickbats at both of them for. Would you find yourself low on petrol, send someone walking back to the nearest gas station to get some, then proceed on your way, or would you wait until he returned with a two gallon can of gas?
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Post by yanmacca on May 20, 2023 20:10:04 GMT
You have changed the beginning of you second paragraph QC, so I guess you are just referring to me then, no matter.
Custer may have moved another four miles north before Martini met Benteen, Cooke understood that the column was going to head north too, and being the realist, I hope he was, Custer would most probably in a battle by the time Martini returned to the spot he was given the note, but now Martini had to move another four miles to find his commander, all this in hostile territory and for what! Custer was going to carryon with his job with or without knowing that Benteen received the note.
Every battle, every messenger sent has a different scenario, getting a return message could be crucial, but in this case, I believe that Cooke was right. Regarding your first paragraph, which also looks changed, how many men join the army to just get a three square meals, how many join the escape something, how many were just Europeans with no beef against the red man, of course they were scared, the Indians took no prisoners and many would also know about the Fetterman massacre.
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Post by quincannon on May 20, 2023 20:47:22 GMT
Yes I was, because when I reread both I realized that Michael had not changed his position on the matter, stating only that Cooke had told him to come back if there was no danger, and not altering his position one iota on the matter of the messenger should have been sent back to verify the message was received and understood. That was the reason for the change in my second paragraph. You on the other hand did not seem to recognize the importance of Custer knowing that his message got through. As you say, no matter, because Custer went ahead anyway with his penchant for stepping all over his dick by doing what he wished anyway, like some petulant child who is told not to play with rattlesnakes and does it anyway.
Ian you do not seem to understand what I am saying here. It is vital for a commander to know his orders are being received. Ask yourself this. If a commander issues an order to a subordinate, telling him to do such and such, and then the commander learns that the order has not been received, should he carry through with what he planned to do, where success depends upon the supporting actions of that subordinate commander? Would you?
The first paragraph was not changed. If they join the Army for three squares Ian, that is taking the king's shilling. Three squares, thirteen bucks a month, a haven from some sheriff or jealous husband, a clean shirt every once and a while, all of it is taking the king's shilling. The reason does not matter. Those persons decided of their free will to join and with joining you are obliged to do your duty, and if need be die, in the performance of that duty. If they shit in the pants at the thought of combat, they should not have joined.
Take this out of the context of LBH or the Fetterman fight for a moment and tell me what you would think of a firefighter who refused to enter a burning building to save a child, or a policeman who would not lay his life on the line to save children in a classroom in the process of being gunned down by some deranged white nationalist? The principle is exactly the same with the soldier in combat. If you are not willing to do what the job calls for, don't take the job. Become something else. Duty is a hard taskmaster. Duty can get you killed real dead. Duty is also its own reward.
Why do you think that LBH is pointed to by most Americans and labeled as a huge mistake? Why do you think the Alamo has become a Shrine of Liberty by those same Americans? The odds were greater at the Alamo than at LBH, and yet those men stayed at their post and no one ran. When given a chance to leave, they all stayed. The one guy who said he left probably was not there in the first place. Those men fought to the end. No one ran. You have nearly the same thing at Roarke's Drift. Company B didn't run. They obeyed their officers and NCO despite even greater odds than the two aforementioned, and they won
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Post by yanmacca on May 21, 2023 19:11:07 GMT
Ian you do not seem to understand what I am saying here. It is vital for a commander to know his orders are being received. QC, How could I not understand that, of course its vital, but Cooke chose not to order him, that is the basis of my last few posts, even Cooke didnt know where the GAC Battalion would be in 30 minutes time and if they would be fighting a major battle a few miles away, so I can see the reasons why he didnt order him when they could be many miles deeper into enemy territory.
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Post by quincannon on May 21, 2023 19:14:39 GMT
Then Cooke was wrong, and as it turned out an unforced error.
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Post by miker on May 22, 2023 9:42:16 GMT
Well. I have read this thread through twice and I find what was billed as a new look has resulted, as usual, in a repetition of previous opinions. My opinion related below is merely opinion without anything behind it except my ability to feel my way forward with my fingers and to keep the battlefield in my mind's eye.
None of us, including me, have provided any new, verifiable information which leads anyone to change their opinion or conclusions.
I have another observation. I don't think there was a concept in the Army of the time of a "main effort" in the way we use it today. The main effort is given the preponderance of resources to accomplish the mission. Usually the commander moves with the main effort.
In this case, Custer appears to have operated with two companies as the main effort. (by the way, this is not an answer to my earlier query.)
The five north crowd recognize this without ever using the words. I agree it makes sense.
Martini finding Benteen is a minor miracle. He went through a physical and temporal gap where the Indians to the South appear to not yet know about the apparent flanking attack by Custer.
When Martini left he saw Reno still engaged in the LBH valley. with what he heard and saw he believed the Indians were running (and, apparently, so did Custer.
Custer erred by not sending Reno's messengers back with instructions or intentions. Benteen erred by not sending Martini back with a written note. (he actually should have sent at least a four) because the wound in Martini's horse indicates the gap is closing.
By the time Benteen gets close to Reno, he sees a disaster unfolding. The space-time gap is closed.
If Custer took the whole battalion, he left a gap behind allowing the Indians to close on his rear. However, he would have maximized his (poor) chances (in retrospect) of success.
Reno is fixed. Benteen became fixed as well, but not due so much to direct enemy action, but by the need to restore order to what is now, quite likly, the regiment (-). By happenstance, Reno found the best defensible ground. Had he gone back on his route he would have pursued and caught against the river. Benteen, coming up, would have had to act in his support on poor terrain.
By the time order was restored in what is now the Regiment, Custer was probably finished, but now the Indians made a mistake by not leaving a larger fixing force on Reno.
Possibly Benteen could have left earlier, having the rear guard/trains secure Reno's position, if so he would likely stopped at Benteen's Peak and seen the "Finish" portion of the fight and been caught in poor terrain. He could have charged, but I should think by now his horses were blown.
Custer does not seem to me have been pursued by the enemy on his possible move North. Perhaps the gap would still be present, but it is likely the Indians would now becoming up from behind him from MTC and other draws.
Sadly Kipling was too young at the time, but custer should have known
,If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white, Remember it's ruin to run from a fight: So take open order, lie down, and sit tight, And wait for supports like a soldier. Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .
After sending Martini, Custer should have found the best available ground: Calhoun Hill or Week's Peak. Not good. Not best. Available.
Custer either took 2 or 5 companies with him. Both are plausible.
If he took all 5 AND he got near Ford D, I just do not see how he had the time to leave Calhoun Hill, almost get to the River, and get three companies back to where they lay. Clearly that group was destroyed from the South.
Perhaps the Indians chopped the column in two, but this seems unlikely because, again, the southern group appears to have collapsed south to North.
If all had gone North, would not the Indians made contact with the southern portion and pushed them further North? Then the center of mass of destruction would be closer to Ford D then Calhoun Hill.
There appears to be no documented evidence - to date of any trace of fighting beyond about 1/2 mile or so from the current entrance. Thus Custer might have been turned back and the southern force fixed before it could leave.
What we might have here, ladies and gentlemen, is a Sioux-Cheyanne Cannae worthy of both Hannibal and Morgan.
Because of poor translation, fear, lack of trust, lack of archeological survey, and continued secrecy by Indians and private collectors any provable events require more faith then evidence.
Perhaps the presentations I believe are scheduled for this summer will be reported on by group members and published in an available popular journal or magazine.
Incidently, Fox or Scott seem to have said that Sioux is different from True/Magnetic North.
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Post by quincannon on May 22, 2023 15:50:14 GMT
Generally concur.
An American Cannae on a stinking little river in Montana. Very true but not in the classical Cannae sense. No frigging pazzaz to it.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 22, 2023 16:06:25 GMT
Why would Martini say the indians were "skedaddling" if...
1) he stated the village was sleeping, with no warriors in sight 2) he stated he briefly saw Reno engaged 3) He SAYS, in later interviews, he saw Custer retreating
At any point did he see/say the indians were running away?
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Post by miker on May 22, 2023 16:28:35 GMT
1. You are correct according to his testimony y at the RCOI. For myself, a deserted village would make me think they had left.
I would have taken the opportunity to attack the village since I either has achieved surprise or they had left.
If Custer thought they were asleep, why would he go North?
2. Reporting Reno is engaged has nothing to do with what is happening to Custer. Indeed, it is valuable information.
3. He told Benteen they were "skedaddled" and Benteen testified as such in the RCOI: "I did not. I will state here that Trumpeter Martin, after giving me that note, I asked him about this village. He said the Indians were all skedaddling, therefore there was less necessity for me going back for the packs."
Good enough for me.
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Post by quincannon on May 22, 2023 19:04:47 GMT
Mike, "41 the Mythbuster" is a very welcome addition in that he apparently has no use for horse puckey.
Obviously Martini can't have it both ways, and depending upon which Martini arrives to show his testimonial ass that is what we have all been getting for a hundred forty years.
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2023 3:40:08 GMT
41 you intrigue me. You seem to dig real deep, and other that Steve Andrews you seem to be one of the few that thinks that Gordon Harper was on to something. I think so too, but I still have reservations on a few things.
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