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Post by johnson1941 on May 24, 2023 19:21:01 GMT
I have read Fred's Strategy a cou[ple months ago - would need to go through again to get specifics. I also will go back on the forum and get a better take on Mike's notions.
From the last couple pages it seems we're really just discussing fine details of locations and timing - which is a good thing! Huh - We may need HR to step in a spice things up!
Thanks for the practical info on skirmish lines etc. I do lack that type of knowledge and thinking.
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Post by quincannon on May 24, 2023 20:13:41 GMT
Yes, it is a tank. An Israeli Merkava Mark III is the next one on my to do list, also in 1/35 scale, followed by fourteen 1/100 scale tanks and IFV's in a Team Yankee starter set. Mike, Ian, and I are all three armor modelers. Children and their toys you know.
I am not sure if all Mike's theory in one the public area of the forum. We communicate here by PM sometimes and by e-mail daily. Essentially though, the theory goes that Gall, and company spotted those three companies on the B-N-C-E ridge complex and pursued them northward to the point where they were fixed and destroyed in the areas indicated by the present monuments.
LBH is ALL ABOUT fine details of locations and timing. You have to make the locations fit the approximate timing, and the timing fit the locations. Most theories hit the shit can because one finds that one is not consistent with the other.
Tactical doctrine is important too, because most smart folks go into their study with the assumption that trained soldiers do not violate that which they have been trained to do on a tactical procedural level. Mistakes do happen though, so doctrine is not an absolute, but it must serve you as a guide, until your research tells you that a big boo boo is the only answer.
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Post by miker on May 24, 2023 21:43:00 GMT
You can get the standard USGS maps at ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#4/40.01/-100.06. It is pretty easy and you can download maps to your computer and/or order them from USGS. You want to use the 1967 maps and the sheets are: Crow Agency MT 1967 Crow Agency SE MT 1967 There are also the 2020 versions, which in my view are not as good as the 1967 one, but they are more up to date in some ways: Crow Agency MT 2020 Crow Agency MT SE 2020 If you download them as pdfs, you can choose various features to display as well as get grid coordinates and some other information. You can get your very own 1:12500 or even 1:10000 map of the Little Bighorn battle area by going to mapstore.mytopo.com/. You can define the area, so that for example you can just select the part of the battlefield you are interested in and get a printed map to the size and resolution you prefer. Its plasticized and you get several choices of format. Again, use the 1967 versions. This saves you the trouble of printing out the maps yourself, piecing them together, and then joining them. I have several detailed maps in my collection both USGS and from mytopo covering things such as Gettysburg, Cowpens, Yorktown, and Saratoga. I have a bunch of maps I had assembled for my planned trip to the LBH covering the whole state, and then 1:250,000, 1:100,000, 1:50,000, 1:24,000, 1:12,500, and 1:10,000. I was greviously disappointed when the pandemic cancelled my 10 day reconnaissance plan, and then snow destroyed my 6-8 hour plan to a 2 hour block. But I have maps!
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Post by miker on May 25, 2023 0:50:42 GMT
You can read my theory here: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/1083/never-got-ford. It may have merit. I conceived it by trying to figure out how they got to where they fell; a technique I learned in the army by figuring out how I wanted to be configured when I got onto an objective as a company commander and battalion staff officer and placing my units appropriately to get like that. The other way I do it is simpler: First the Panzers punch a hole, then see what develops. You can't control anything after you cross the line of departure. It helps if you use Fingerspitzengefühl and Coup d'œil.I'm gratified Chuck has been thinking about it. IF you want to discuss it please go that thread so we keep this one focused as much as possible on Ian's treatment the original subject.
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2023 2:54:55 GMT
I am gratified that you are gratified my dear friend. If it were not plausible though, I would be less than gratified. As I said I have some issues with your theory, but those issues are on the margins, such as the location of the Company L skirmish line, but as said above once and a while even the best of them make bonafide boo boos, usually to their ultimate regret. As I look at it a ridge is a ridge in a place full of ridges and I think Red Hawk could have been speaking about the N-C-L-E complex being the location vice Battle Ridge.
Take a look at the mouth of the small coulee on your map at 12004820. See if it trips your trigger. As an Infantryman, in pursuit of a retrograding enemy that can still bite me, I think I might be tempted to use it in preference to ridge running. The stopper at the mouth of that coulee is where L's first line was established.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 25, 2023 6:39:19 GMT
Question Everyone has Custer going along past the Reno position. Reno, Benteen, Weir et al are all playing where is Custer.
How come no one (other than Godfrey) ever say they saw Custer's trail? Cheers
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Post by miker on May 25, 2023 7:10:26 GMT
Take a look at the mouth of the small coulee on your map at 12004820. See if it trips your trigger. As an Infantryman, in pursuit of a retrograding enemy that can still bite me, I think I might be tempted to use it in preference to ridge running. The stopper at the mouth of that coulee is where L's first line was established. I would certainly use that as an approach to Calhoun Hill and from there aim to BM3224. It gives you access to a plethora of small draws to work your way up the hill. I was trained to much prefer running draws as to using ridges. It occurs to me that what we have here is a non-contiguous battlefield and of course, no one is in supporting distance of each other as they deploy along Battle Ridge. Better to choose one place and form a perimeter and I like Calhoun Hill better than Last Stand Hill. I'm probably all wrong though. I'm an armored cavalryman not a light infantryman. You are closer to those pony soldiers than I am...
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Post by miker on May 25, 2023 7:13:18 GMT
Question Everyone has Custer going along past the Reno position. Reno, Benteen, Weir et al are all playing where is Custer.
How come no one (other than Godfrey) ever say they saw Custer's trail? Cheers
Because Godfrey was probably one of the best officers in the Regiment as shown by his eventual promotion to BG. Everyone else was trying to cope with what to do to get out of there and didn't much care about conducting an After Action Review/Terrain Walk/Staff Ride after the battle. And he didn't realize its significance until Gall pointed it out to him 10 years later.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 25, 2023 10:50:52 GMT
Godfrey (w/ orderly Penwell) was able to go off on his own as it where after the battle. Gall reminded him of his findings 10 years later. "on June 28th, I asked Major Reno for permission to go on the high ridge east or back of the field to look for tracks...when I reached the ridge I saw this trail...but dismissed the thought it had been made by Custer's column...because it did not accord with the {ford} theory..." Ah armour modelers - nice! I have done my share of models, but more into planes - US Navy/USMC most often. Lately more into Winchesters and Brownings. Thanks for ALL the info gents - I really need to keep at it and do some more reading! Oh and Miker - thanks for the MAPS in that other thread - they make all difference! I hate reading this stuff where interviewees refer to maps or drawing that ARE NOT THERE! ugh Cheers!
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Post by yanmacca on May 25, 2023 12:39:36 GMT
Question Everyone has Custer going along past the Reno position. Reno, Benteen, Weir et al are all playing where is Custer.
How come no one (other than Godfrey) ever say they saw Custer's trail? Cheers
Hi Mac, like everything about this battle, nothing is straight forward in fact it seems like their memory was totally screwed up after the battle, below is just a quick search on what I have on the RCOI:
Reno:
When Hare returned, Reno said he directed him to head to CPT Weir, who on his own hook had begun moving downstream, to try to communicate with Custer. They saw Custer’s trail. “It was back of the position I took when I went on the hill.”
Hare:
When Hare returned, Reno told him to move on ahead to CPT Weir and tell Weir to try to open communications with Custer. Reno would follow as soon as the packs came up. Hare gave the message to Weir and headed back. He met the command coming downstream. The command moved about 1 mile and reached “a high hill, the highest point around there,” when the Indians began to attack. Lyman Gilbert posed an interesting question: How did they know Custer went in that direction? Hare responded that, “The supposition was that General Custer would support Major Reno by following him up. He knew that he had not done that. … Everybody supposed that he would attack the village somewhere… and that was the only other way he had of going to the village….”
Ian
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Post by miker on May 25, 2023 13:03:35 GMT
Oh and Miker - thanks for the MAPS in that other thread - they make all difference! I hate reading this stuff where interviewees refer to maps or drawing that ARE NOT THERE! ugh Cheers! Can't study history without a map. I have amassed a library of sorts for them, but have discovered I could now discard many without harm, but remain reluctant to do so.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 25, 2023 13:31:27 GMT
Question Everyone has Custer going along past the Reno position. Reno, Benteen, Weir et al are all playing where is Custer.
How come no one (other than Godfrey) ever say they saw Custer's trail? Cheers
Hi Mac, like everything about this battle, nothing is straight forward in fact it seems like their memory was totally screwed up after the battle, below is just a quick search on what I have on the RCOI:
Reno:
When Hare returned, Reno said he directed him to head to CPT Weir, who on his own hook had begun moving downstream, to try to communicate with Custer. They saw Custer’s trail. “It was back of the position I took when I went on the hill.”
Yes Ian, thank you, that is the point. It was back of the position Reno took. That is all we know.
Benteen had followed Custer's trail when he was beckoned to take the right hand trail to join Reno. Weir went to the obvious high point. He did not follow Custer's trail.
All the 3411, 3413, Weir Peak means nothing necessarily as no one has actually deduced Custer's route between Ford A and the big W of artifacts.
Cheers
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Post by miker on May 25, 2023 13:53:23 GMT
Hi Mac, like everything about this battle, nothing is straight forward in fact it seems like their memory was totally screwed up after the battle, below is just a quick search on what I have on the RCOI:
Reno:
When Hare returned, Reno said he directed him to head to CPT Weir, who on his own hook had begun moving downstream, to try to communicate with Custer. They saw Custer’s trail. “It was back of the position I took when I went on the hill.”
Yes Ian, thank you, that is the point. It was back of the position Reno took. That is all we know.
Benteen had followed Custer's trail when he was beckoned to take the right hand trail to join Reno. Weir went to the obvious high point. He did not follow Custer's trail.
All the 3411, 3413, Weir Peak means nothing necessarily as no one has actually deduced Custer's route between Ford A and the big W of artifacts.
Cheers
I believe Benteen was at a place where he was trying to decide if he would follow Reno's trail into the Little Bighorn Valley or to follow Custer. The Scout pointed him to the right toward where Reno was and that automatically directed Benteen's attention to linking up, consolidating, and reorganizing prior to continuing. Of course, Reno was now in command of the combined force and was predominantly focused on recovering after his fight, instead of scouting for his adjutant's body though, he should have directed Varnum to scout the area. If Reno's command had not been so shot up, they might then have followed Custer, but I don't think they would have linked up since Custer obviously continued to move. We can also surmise that no one noticed the trail as they rode toward Weir Point, which I generally default in my mind - probably erroneously - with the current road. They could have easily missed any tracks that went from Custer's possible offset route toward 3411, 3413, or Weir Point as they had another focus.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2023 14:28:48 GMT
So why did Custer send that order at that time? Mac A valid concern. Custer was at critical decision point in Reno Creek. He could follow Reno into the valley and move around Reno's left flank when he stopped and dismounted. Instead he chose to go to the bluffs putting NOGO terrain features between the Indians in the Big Village and his command. Should Custer have sent the order from Reno Creek rather than waiting until he was north of Wier? Regards Steve
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2023 14:30:31 GMT
My problem is if Custer needed the troops and the trains then why did he immediately continue North and make it harder and harder for those resources to reach him?
Cooke asked Martini to repeat the message and he could not, so Cooke hastily scribbled the order, handed it to Martini and then rushed off to catch up with the command, which was already on the move. A lot of haste if you are calling up the trains.
Exactly! Custer moved north faster than mules could travel and opened the gap between his command and the pack train. Regards Steve
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