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Post by quincannon on Jun 25, 2023 15:13:05 GMT
I am not as widely read on this particular subject as some here, but what reading I have done makes no mention of having any problems with either weapons or ammunition, except at Little Big Horn.
Mike is correct. Had Custer or Reno trained their people when they both had the opportunity especially in live fire marksmanship certainly these problems had they existed would have revealed themselves during that training, corrective action taken, and there would not have been the problems that were encountered.
When I was a young lad in the first weeks of Basic Combat Training, being a city kid, I had never held, much less fired a rifle in my life. Of those undergoing that training most were just like me, city kids. There were a few country kids who were somewhat familiar with weapons, but in my company they were few and far between. As we went on the ranges in Week Three I recall a lot of stoppages, which our instructors would both correct, and train us in preventing and correcting any incidents with immediate action. As week three progressed into week four and qualification in week five these incidents were reduced to a non-factor. Now if a city kid like me can go from nowhere with a weapon to firing Expert in qualification in two weeks, roughly the same period Custer had to train his people, I am not in the mood to except any goddamned excuses like the rifle and ammunition caused the f**k up.
TRAINING TOUJOUR TRAINING. TRAIN AS YOU INTEND TO FIGHT. BECOME TACTICALLY AND TECHNICALLY PROFICIENT. That is as much a precept of our religion as Christ sacrificing Himself on the Cross is to a Christian
Tactics are universal to all time. It is an gross error of statement to think that the TACTICS of Barca, Caesar, and Alexander were any different than those used in Iraq, Afghanistan, or today in the Ukraine. TECHNIQUE and PROCEDURES to implement those tactics have changed over the years to adapt some of those tactics to warfare as the stupidity of waging war has progressed through the years. Not always though. Caesar himself in Commentaries tells us that when you stop in Indian Country you fortify and dig, even if the time of the halt is short. That is the same as we do today. It is a religion. Caesar says you throw out security no matter what you are doing, marching, defending or having a Bar B Q. So please do not accuse Mike, Myself, Colt or anyone else who has practiced the art in the twentieth or Twenty First Century of applying modern TACTICS to battles in previous centuries. That just does not hold water. Now had Mike said he would move his M1A1 to such and such a place on Reno Hill there might be cause to question his grasp of reality, but he never said that did he.
Lack of Training and poor leadership is the direct, and really only cause for the defeat of the 7th Cavalry, and anyone who blames the trivial, that could have been put right before the battle just does not know what they are talking about. They live in a land where military angels fear to tread, because to go there is wrong, misleading, and just plain stupid.
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Post by miker on Jun 25, 2023 19:51:42 GMT
Promotion
He was an artilleryman (like Upton) offered Colonelcy in the cavalry to work with Pleasanton and Hooker, which he refused. (Maybe a typo in the grade he was offered.) Perhaps his health problems and lack of experience with cavalry led him to refuse the offer.
Skirmishing
Sadly, New American Tactics, like Upton's Cavalry Tactics, does not seem to be available. I found a place to purchase it, but it was listed as sold out and I found no on line copies. It would be interesting to see how similar they are, if at all.
Skirmishing has nothing to do with the 1873 Carbine. It was adopted very early in warfare with slingers and javelin throwers amongst others.
As I said, a parsimonious Congress anxious to reduce spending in some areas, limited the amount of firing for the Army. After the LBH, it received a greater emphasis. If you don't practice, you don't shoot straight. If you don't shoot straight, you miss the target. If you miss the target, it makes it difficult to win.
In my view, you think Custer was competent and Reno supposed/possible incompetence, personality and seek to link all that complicated chain to the fact that the 7th. just. didn't. shoot. straight. Nor did the rest of the Army.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 25, 2023 20:35:51 GMT
I ahve seen the effectiveness of those men assessed n various ways and concluded for myself that as a result of recruitment, in essence, 20% had five or more years in their company. 20% had four years and so on into 20% with less than a year. That keeps things simple which I'm sure is worthwhile. At the individual and company level then numbers can run riot and have but the system in place was what it was. Reno first footed the action. My premise is the early rapid firing utilised the battalions carried rounds and the two companies opening firing went rapid and jammed the weapons with dirty ammo. This pulled the rug under morale. I'm assessing the bulk of the last post and will let you know. The Glastonbury festival is closing tonight in UK, with Elton John giving his last ever live performance. Glasto UK 200,000 in a field. Be well. Added - The concert is streaming live on BBC iPlayer. I still listen to his 1971 Album, 'Madman Across the Water'. |
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Post by quincannon on Jun 25, 2023 20:47:21 GMT
Why was the ammo dirty HR? Answer - Lack of training. No excuse for that.
Isn't Glastonbury associated with King Arthur, or whatever his name was?
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Post by herosrest on Jun 25, 2023 20:55:06 GMT
Yup, the rounds were copper which corroded in air and moisture. Glastonbury was mixed up with everything since Caesar stubbed his toe here in 55BC. Edmund Ironside and the Viking Wars to..... 1016 AD. QC, the rounds were dirty and guns jammed. Let's get Custer up on charges  |
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Post by quincannon on Jun 25, 2023 23:28:38 GMT
HR, if you child, wife, girlfriend, mistress, cousin, best friend, mother, father, priest or rabbi, soiled their knickers in your presence, and they did not know what to do about it, would you not first help them clean themselves up, then teach them what to do about it, so they may avoid the problem in the future? Same with weapons and ammunition. In battle they are your child, wife, girlfriend, mistress, cousin, mother, father, priest and rabbi. You owe your weapon and ammunition the most tender care. It has been said of the Army of Northern Virginia, that they were the dirtiest men on planet earth, but their weapons were always bright and clean. The same thing was said about those rag tag revolutionaries that threw your butt out of our colonies during that family argument of 1775 - 1783. A clean weapon and serviceable ammunition is the difference between a soldier life and death there can be no compromises. It was not the weapons or ammunitions fault, it was their officers and NCO's fault. Yes, if I thought it would do any good I would dig that slimy bastard up, stand him against the wall and shoot him for gross negligence, and second degree murder, the gross disregard of human life.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 26, 2023 8:39:52 GMT
I feel that your animosity (towards Custer) is unrealistic and a tad over-dramatic. It was hardly his fault the Big H turned him into a hero, over and again and again, roger.
If'n I sum your thrust up, then you feel that he was a dirty bastard who didn't polish his copper and did, his brass. He did die fighting though and surely you can shed a little tear for the guy and his outstanding wife.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 26, 2023 8:53:49 GMT
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Post by miker on Jun 26, 2023 10:47:01 GMT
In my view, chuck has a much more favorable view of Both Custer and Reno than most people and he believes for the most part they were both competent. But both failed to prepare for the mission and perhaps didn't press their needs enough. They had inadequate resources and as I have stated senior commanders failed to provide at least two needs: (1) horses and (2) ammunition for target practice. A possible third issue is not learning how to use miles before departing.
More than enough mistakes were made by all concerned. The carbine is not by any means the fundamental cause. In no particular order and not all Custer's or Reno's fault.
Lack of resources.
Lack of training.
Failure to designate and resource a main effort. (By the way Custer did this by forming the Custer Battalion with 5 companies.)
Dividing the force. (Terry and Custer)
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Post by miker on Jun 26, 2023 11:18:42 GMT
A movie? You use an inaccurate movie to with a saber charge as a method to refute the importance of marksmanship training without some commentary on why you think its important? And please explains how you feel the Pacific War relates to the Centennial Campaign. Not helpful. Or maybe I'm just stupid. |
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 26, 2023 11:36:23 GMT
HR, was it true that these men had rode two days including a night march to fight this battle? Is it also true that they had no cartridge belts? So the avenue you should go down is, would these carbines be still clean after two days on a dusty trail and would these cartridges be clean after they had stuffed them into their dirty, dusty pockets. That will save you the trouble of being chasing around the mulberry bush being subjected to battles before and after this one.
Elton was great by the way, the old ones never let you down.
Ian
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Post by miker on Jun 26, 2023 12:16:15 GMT
No, that is not true, but the cartridge belts did interact with the cartridges.
I liked the older Elton better than the new, but I agree.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 26, 2023 15:06:36 GMT
HR: Any officer that NEEDLESSLY expends the lives of US or allied soldiers due to hubris, incompetence, malfeasance, or stupidity is high on my shit list and will remain so. Custer joins the ranks of MacArthur and Montgomery in that regard. The first of these later let his force be destroyed because of all four of those deadly ills. The second created a lot of widows and orphans in your own country because his head was still fighting on the Somme in 1916 and not in North Africa, Italy, and Norther France. Failure to adapt is incompetence.
Your own Wellington lost a lot of troops, but not because he wasted them. Napoleon lost a lot of troops because he failed to do what any good commander must do - love them. Napoleon is on my shit list. Wellington is not.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 27, 2023 11:34:51 GMT
A movie? You use an inaccurate movie to with a saber charge as a method to refute the importance of marksmanship training without some commentary on why you think its important? And please explains how you feel the Pacific War relates to the Centennial Campaign. Not helpful. Or maybe I'm just stupid. It's unfortunate that your your prose seems to present an attitude difficulty. Fortunately I am able to see through this and forgive what must be forgiven. For clearly, you are not thinking straight. We do not know if Custer considered himself a hero. Hollywood did in 1941, coincident with the eve of war and i'm sure the jingoism appealed to many a young mind. You seem to take issue with issues and to redefine them. If we were on a battlefield then I just might admire you. However, we are not but are discussing why, as I can plainly see, Reno's fight in the valley faltered when guns began jamming. It's testimony at the Inquiry. It's mentioned in roundabout fashion during French's Courtmartial transcripts. Why do you feel that I need it drilled into me that 7th Cavalry were poorly prepared? Take riding. They left FAL in May and arrived on Rosebud 5/6 weeks later. How did they travel to Yellowstone? Right, i'm on a pc and not tapping a silly phone keyboard. I find it very odd that people dictate using phones these days. Talking to a phone, whatever next! |
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Post by miker on Jun 27, 2023 12:31:56 GMT
I am so happy that you find it in your heart to forgive something I do not believe I demonstrate. I find your references and prose to be disjointed, cryptic, and not always apropos to our discussions. And, the propensity of the board members to insert information not pertaining to a thread discussion is distracting and not professional. I do it sometimes, but endeavor not to. (Except lately.)
Custer certainly considered himself a hero and shown by his self-aggrandizement in writing to newspapers about his exploits. Sheridan considered him a Hero. His wife fed his ego. Grant not so much. Don't know about Sherman.
Reno's charge faltered when he saw Indians boiling out of the village toward his command and he was outnumbered at least 3:1. He did not have the combat power to fight outnumbered and win in an attack, but he could win in the defense. The stoppages were not the main cause in the defeat and anyway, he was able to withdraw to the timber, then break out or flee to Reno Hill where they successfully stood off the Indian's for another day.
I find it necessary to drill into you the 7th was poorly prepared because you attach too much importance to weapons stoppages.
Sheridan, Terry, Custer, or Reno did not prepare their troops to sortie when the weather permitted. Custer found it more important to be in NY then with his regiment. There was a complete and utter failure of the chain of command to prepare and conduct combat operations. Don't even get me started on Gibbon.
Proper training would have prevented piss poor performance. They could have practiced clearing stoppages in garrison, particularly if they conducted marksmanship training. We don't have any knowledge if they cleaned their weapons and ammunition every night when they camped.
When I commanded my two platoons and three companies, I made my units clean their weapons daily in the field, even though we almost never had any ammunition to fire in training. I cleaned my own machine gun and I made every vehicle commander clean his.
In Europe we were uploaded with main gun ammunition and my machine guns were stored in the tanks, not the ammunition supply point or arms room. Weapons and ammo were inventoried daily. Every Friday weapons were cleaned in the motor pool. Ammunition, particularly depleted Uranium rounds and High Explosive Plastic rounds were inspected and cleaned monthly and inventoried daily.
As a company commander usually my tanks were parked outside and could be hard to start. In my last company I had 14 tanks and 7 motor pool bays. In Spring/Summer the tanks in the motor pool were backed into their bay so they could get out quickly. In winter, they were driven in bow first. The battalion commander, the first time he saw it, berated me for having them facing the wrong way in front of the staff and the company commanders. When prompted to reply (Just what the F*** do you think you are doing, Robel?) I said, "This way the tanks on the inside when they start can warm up the engines on the tanks on the outside to enable them to start and the slave cables are long enough to reach from tank to tank from inside the bays to the outside bays or side to side inside or outside in case the batteries are not charged." After that, he said, "Why didn't you dicks think of that?"
My soldiers had to shave before breakfast because the US Army believed more than a day's worth of beard disrupted the gas mask seal. I checked to make sure my tank crew changed their socks daily, as did every leader. My 1SG or Gunner would check my feet.
This was not just me being a martinet or a dick. I wanted to get out of the motor pool as soon as possible. The standard to get the battalion out of the motor pool and into the local assembly areas was 30 minutes.
I never said they couldn't ride. I said they didn't have enough horses. 1/7th of the regiment was left behind at the depot, together with the band. The Army failed from top to bottom to properly equip the regiment.
Its not about the weapons. Its about command, leadership, and training.
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