Ford B: Prelude to Destruction

[miker]

As to the first burst. If they are mounted, I can count them as cavarly even if they are dragoons. The 1st Cav was dismounted. I would grant that the 1st CAV in VN acted as cavalry, except the infantry battalions did not have their own mounts.

Second, I agree.

Third: It is my experience and observation that ABCTs, SBCTs, and IBCTs do not train in reconnaissance and security. Their cavalry squadrons do. That is not to say they can't be train. And in

Fourth, Herr: Agree.

Ford B. Not saying you are right, not saying you are wrong, and do not think you consider me an idiot. Saying I am not satisfied one way or the other. I understand your position as I believe you understand mine.

[azranger]

Three eyewitness accounts place soldiers near MTFs. Curley witnesses a split in MTC. His description of some moving straight across MTC and egress up through Luce and on to NC is supported by artifacts and Indian accounts.

Curley also states some soldiers went toward the river and identifies the Gray Horses. Martin states he was given the note 600 yards from the river and cut back across to Weir to deliver it. Thompson states he observed fighting. In the published paper by our friend Gerry he shows the viewscape from Thompson's location. It includes the same area Martin describes.

So for our military officers here could Custer gone that far to block and slow the  crossing of warriors at MTF with the purpose of allowing those troops crossing to the Calhoun Area from being attacked from the left flank and rear. My belief is that is what occurred but not sure of the intent of his movement.

From there he went across the western travel corridor which would have been visible before moving down into MTC. The single line of markers could be soldiers picked off from the rear. It sucks to have the slowest horse. Those movements are displayed in Maguire's map.

Regards

Steve

[miker]

Thanks Steve. 

Who is Gerry?  What is his paper?  Is it available?

[quincannon]

No Mike I am not saying you are an idiot. What I am saying is the situation facing Custer at that moment, and sending someone to Ford B, makes him an idiot. If you were faced with the same situation you sure as hell would not do it. That's a fact, because despite our different branch orientation, we studied at the same doctrinal schoolhouse.

With regard to Private Thompson, I do wish Ian would post a video, here on the main board, dealing with the Battle of the Bulge he shared with me via PM, regarding a Private Hughes of the 82nd Airborne Division. Steve would look at Thompson quite differently I'd wager, not through Gerry Schultz's eyes, but through the eyes of unfortunate reality, a reality of what war and battle does to some otherwise very good people.

I highly recommend this video, something that everyone interested in this battle and battle in general should view, and heed the lessons of

[azranger]

Jan 31, 2023 2:24:35 GMT quincannon said:

The banner is from 3411 Mike.

3411 or fence post as I call it is on the land acquired by the preservation committee which donated all it to management of the Hardin Museum. The lifetime passes are still valid. 

Even better my Crow friend can go anywhere he wants within the reservation boundary. He owns Cedar Coulee. I do wish we could all meet there some time in the near future. My horseback riding days are coming to an end because of my vertigo. 

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Feb 1, 2023 0:52:57 GMT miker said:

I guess I am too dumb to know what I am looking at on the masthead picture above. I am led to believe that that is from 3411 and it is showing Ford B. I have to say that it does not look to me like the river is 3400 meters away from the viewer. Request enlightenment. I feel some of said it does show that and others say nay.

Help me.

Mike 

You are right on. In 2009 my son gave a free trip to the LBH battlefield. We were driving along and I saw a potential viewpoint that would be beneficial if you were horseback. I called it fence post. In a personal conversation with Fred I told him it was different than 3411 elevation on a map. He said I was where he thought and that 3411 was just marker on the map not an exact location. I will look for my GPS picture of that exact location but its buried in years of photos. Its a panoramic photo.

I was only looking for where Custer could have been and waving to Reno's command. The reason I stopped is that it allows complete cover on the approach and you can chose how much exposure you want even on horseback.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Hi Mike

Gerry Schultz

A Geographic Analysis of Private Peter Thompson's Path from the Lone Teepee to Thompson's Ford

Page 1, 31st Annual Symposium Custer Battlefield Historical & Museum Assn. (CBHMA) June 23, 2017

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Feb 3, 2023 15:55:52 GMT miker said:

Feb 3, 2023 15:43:30 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

Thank you both for the clarification.

Mike, yes you can see Weir, from B, there is however a ridge between, I believe it is near where the Crow Scouts lobbed rounds into the village.

Regards,
Tom

Thanks, Tom!

That's a good point Tom. Two years ago I rode with my  Crow friend from MTC approximately 600 yards from the river to Weir. We focused on the east side and of course lost it at times do to the terrain but could correct when we could see Weir.

We saw Weir from MTC and used it like most horsemen would do. You fix a distant point and move toward it.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Back off to eastern AZ where I have no internet, or cell coverage enough to make or receive calls.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Feb 1, 2023 17:54:38 GMT quincannon said:

Two cents worth: When I visited the battlefield I purposely started at the Reno defense site. I had to drive by Ford B of course, but paid no attention to it, as I have nearly always known where it was. That said, when I started back toward the Custer portion of the park, I took my time, stopped several places including the area near 3411 (did not know about Fred's 3411 at the time) and at Weir Point. At each stop I looked northward trying to get an idea of what Weir, Benteen, and Reno saw as the moved in that direction. At no time did I see Ford B when I stopped. I did not see it until I rounded a corner in the park road where it starts to ascend toward F-F Ridge and Calhoun Hill. I could not see much of B from F-F Ridge, and none of it from Calhoun Hill. Looking over at the eastern ridges though it is not hard to imagine that B could be seen as the column used those ridges to move northward. Could not visit the eastern ridges, so I cannot be completely certain, but I suspect the trained eye could look at B from there, and while they could not access fordability, what they probably saw was enough to convince them B was a dry hole, a place to be avoided.

Chuck 

I am sure you are correct when driving. The cut for the road was not there when they moved toward MTC. I believe they moved along the eastern edge of Weir and crossed at a natural crossing between Weir and the loaf. I am not sure what the discussion is about but if you can see Weir from the Ford B it works both ways. 

I believed they travel down Middle Coulee for several reasons. The area where Thompson sees Custer is an easy ride horseback and the feature that makes Custer disappear is there. 

Regards

Steve

[miker]

Chuck. I didn’t think you were calling me an idiot. I phrased it poorly.

[yanmacca]

Feb 3, 2023 18:23:53 GMT quincannon said:

With regard to Private Thompson, I do wish Ian would post a video, here on the main board, dealing with the Battle of the Bulge he shared with me via PM, regarding a Private Hughes of the 82nd Airborne Division. Steve would look at Thompson quite differently I'd wager, not through Gerry Schultz's eyes, but through the eyes of unfortunate reality, a reality of what war and battle does to some otherwise very good people.

I have posted the video on the WAM thread.

[quincannon]

Well yes it was while driving and to be fair I was not trying to follow Custer's trail, rather that of the three people I mentioned in the post. I have no doubt you can see Ford B from a vantage point further east, looking at the place from an angle. No question at all.

None of this changes the fact that going down there is just a suicidal act, in one way or the other. The most likely way is you go down there, get seen, then proceed north. Your back door is wide open, you are separated from the rest of the regiment by having a protentional (very real as it turned out) wedge driven between you and them. An act of a stark raving madman.

Thank you Ian. I encourage everyone to view the entire video, if for nothing else to get a new perspective of the Thompson issue. I keep telling you folks that war does funny things to people's minds. What the video shows is a prime example of what war can do, and does all the time. It is just not realized by the public at large, and people who have been in the military are reluctant to accept it.

[miker]

Feb 3, 2023 19:08:08 GMT azranger said:

Hi Mike

Gerry Schultz

A Geographic Analysis of Private Peter Thompson's Path from the Lone Teepee to Thompson's Ford

Page 1, 31st Annual Symposium Custer Battlefield Historical & Museum Assn. (CBHMA) June 23, 2017

Regards

Steve

Thanks Steve

[mac]

Feb 3, 2023 3:55:28 GMT miker said:

Feb 3, 2023 0:57:46 GMT mac said:

All we need to do now is ask ourselves is there any tactically useful reason for Custer, knowing the village is there, to take Companies E and F down to the river and form up opposite the Big Village?

Mike:  I still think you are using current knowledge of what was going on.  When Custer turned NW he most likely had no clue about what was up there.  Specifically he had no idea Wolf Tooth was up there nor just where Ford B or D was. The Crows and Boyer did, but that is not the same thing.  He does not know where Reno is or what he is doing.  He has lost contact and neither can support Reno nor be Supported by him. 


He MAY have thought he could split the Indians,  hammer and anvil the Indians between him and Reno and that he could capture non-combatant hostages.  He'd done it before and it worked.  It infuriates Chuck, but hostage taking was a tactic in antiquity.  I can see it might be useful in counterinsurgency. 

Mike

My point here is that Custer can easily see from high in MTC that the village is across the river from the ford. This means he is taking two Companies, about 100 men, to the edge of the river where they will be about 50 meters from a village of about 2,000 lodges.

Would you try to cross at that point?

Cheers