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Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2022 15:03:33 GMT
CN: Adding ro what I said above regarding Benteen. When they withdrew from Weir, most indications are that Benteen was in de facto command of the regiment (-). Reno was probably not focused enough, after the ordeal in the valley and what happened subsequently. We tend to look at commanders the way we look at superheroes in the comic books, always on top of their game. I think we all must step back and focus on the fact that they are first fragile human beings just like all the rest of us.
I have personally witnessed a general officer lose all sense of focus and decision making powers due to a good portion of his command being overcome by heat, and dropping like flies. He was informed that the Deprartment of the Army Inspector General would arrive to investigate the next day, and he completely lost it. All this occurred during a training exercise, not combat, and the heat was in excess of 110 for a number of days in a row. The remedy was lay up during the day, and train at night, which is what we ended up doing under a new brigade commander. The general officer that lost it was relieved.
I am also pretty sure that LSH was leveled off to put in the road and the original cemetery which was located there, to the extent that the height was reduced significantly, and dirt from the height was used as fill to level at least two then existing dips in the spine of Battle Ridge. I concur with Mac that Custer could have seen that going on south of his position. I use the word could instead of would because I am not sure how much powder smoke and dust would have effected his field of view..
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 22, 2022 11:10:04 GMT
Company F I have said elsewhere that Company F loose their mounts on Battle Ridge Extension to the North of Last Stand Hill. This is based on the Indian accounts. The thing this discussion has helped me resolve is why this happens and I will save that discussion for a little later. For now I will propose that Company F create the Skirmish line relics that the archaeology shows at the Northern end of the valley below Battle Ridge Extension and around where the highway runs opposite the Trading Post. The orientation of the skirmish line makes me think that they are firing South down the valley. There are limited cases, which suggests to me a short duration. I propose that it may be fire to cover the retreat of the other companies as they move up the slope of the ridges to regain the ridge tops. If this were so then this skirmishing Company would be the last to retreat from the valley, and they would climb up the Northern end of Battle Ridge extension. Hence I propose that the Skirmish Company is Company F. This is why they are the furthest North on Battle Ridge Extension.
Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 22, 2022 11:14:59 GMT
That is why I wanted to post up a map, it will show on screen all the locations of the cartridges to give people a grasp of the areas and distances. I have reverted to an older map with less detail and I have found number 1605, it is part of a small group five army cartridges plus Indian ones too. If it is easy for you to post Ian then it would be most welcome. Congrats on Cricket result!
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Nov 22, 2022 15:43:56 GMT
Makes sense Mac.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 22, 2022 20:09:37 GMT
Hi Mac, if E and F went towards the river and the other three stayed on the bluffs, then these two companies may have decided to hold the bluffs to allow the others to retrograde.
they could have formed an L shape with E along the bottom and F along the side, so the other three compaies would be behind these two. This L shaped defense would allow them to block attacks from the west and south, which corisponds Indian attacks coming across the river and trying to out flank them.
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 22, 2022 20:48:14 GMT
We are going okay in the Football WC, your boys went 1-0 up against the French then it went 1-1, not seen the final score yet. I am having problems with that map, one side is grave markers and the is finds, none have any key or any locations, but I will have a good guess below.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 22, 2022 21:14:26 GMT
Where Mac places E and F it is doubtful that one could be seen by the other, with more than a thousand meter gap between the two. Non-starter as far as I am concerned if you are suggesting that E and F tried to hold off the Indians while the other three retrograded south.
You are saying three things that I disagree with Ian.
1) That E and F tried to hold anyone by themselves. That thousand meters is space enough to drive the Hertz Rental Car fleet though at the same time. Therefore there must be another answer
2) That C, I, and L departed without becoming engaged. That does not hold water given the three pistol cartridge finds. I have no problem with E and F covering the withdrawal. I do have trouble with them covering at the initial stage of the battle because of an early withdrawal of the other three.
3) If E and F were where Mac places them they had company. At least two more, and possibly three companies were in on what was intended to be an assault. My guess is four up with one in close reserve to exploit a gain or penetration made, based upon the often told story of four guidons coming over the ridge, which is a Cheyenne story I believe. I am quite sure that you fall in with the notion that Custer would not attack with two, and leave three behind in the Calhoun Area. If I am correct about that, then what you are suggesting is that Custer was assauting with E and F leaving three companies behind on Cemetery/BRE. The only thing that changes between the former and the later then is where the three companies were left. Stunning, not stinting, the saying goes. You cannot stun with two, and you would have a hell of a time stunning with all five, given the size of the opposition.
There is an answer here, but what you propose is not it
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Post by rollingthunder on Nov 23, 2022 19:04:54 GMT
That is why I wanted to post up a map, it will show on screen all the locations of the cartridges to give people a grasp of the areas and distances. I have reverted to an older map with less detail and I have found number 1605, it is part of a small group five army cartridges plus Indian ones too. A map would be very nice to accurately mark all those cartridges
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 23, 2022 20:23:12 GMT
Hi Pachi, the cartidge map I have is three foot by four foot and gives all the finds, but it is void of any features to reference the finds against, as it is so large I cannot scan it
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 23, 2022 20:24:29 GMT
There is an answer here, but what you propose is not it Well, I was trying to fill in gaps behind Macs data, because Fred mentions about F being in the basin area covering deep ravine, he bases his data on Fox and JSIT, but also adds that there is little historical evidence for this move.
Well, I had two options, I gave you the first and now the second.
I believe that the column separated in MTC, then met up on BRE, they all went down onto the flats and after taking fire formed a skirmish line to return fire. F, C, I & L could have been behind a crossing made by E in which their commander got shot, during this time Keogh got fixed up with E and F, then they all went back to BRE. Then I think that L and C simply got the orders to move back in which the other three held off the advance by the Indians, maybe Keogh couldnt hold his position on BRE and followed C and L later and that’s why we have a gap in time in which L and C operated alone. If Keogh broke free due to pressure, then that would leave a gap behind F and E.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Nov 23, 2022 20:47:03 GMT
When are you going to come to realize that Wagner does not know any more about what really happened than you do, or for that matter the average third grader. The only people that know what happened were all dead by 5 O'clock that Sunday afternoon, and they left us no memoirs.
Your version, contained in your third paragraph, is just as good as mine or anyone else's.
What I try to do when I look at these things is to examine the probabilities. In your first version I found it improbable that the two flanking companies, if that is what they in fact were, with a 1000 meters betwen them, as positioned by Mac, were not in mutual support of one another. The range was too great. What logic then tells me is that there must have been some units in between. Therefore Companies C-I-L could not have been left on the ridge. The direction of fire (southward) that Mac points to does suggest providing covering fire, but for someone else, not Company E.
IF is the biggest word in the English Language. If only. But if. You will drive yourself bat shit crazy trying to figure what all the IF's are much less trying to wedge them in a 1000 piece puzzel with more than half the pieces missing.
Now I do hope you have dismiised this crazy idea of you leaving the board at the New Year.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2022 12:52:31 GMT
Remember this is just a throw out of ideas..but.. I think when Custer approached the river in the Northern Valley; this is the period that Indian accounts call slow fighting. When Custer arrives I see no point at all to leaving anyone on the ridges. The whole idea is to get across the river. Move forward, forget holding ground, attack is the object. Indian accounts say that they (the Indians) moved onto Battle Ridge when Custer went into the valley.
Accounts say that when Custer came back to the ridge the Indians dropped off to the East/ North East.
Company E were at the river with all the rest of the command in the valley. One account says "as far back as the eye could see" and intimidating to the original Indian defenders.
Accounts say that Company E at least, retreated with their faces to the Indians, firing as they went, and leading their horses up the slope.
I envisage that Company E are encountering much more resistance at the river as the Indian numbers coming up from the village increase. Enough to cause Custer to see he could not cross and consequently there was no point to staying. So he orders a retrograde.
His force is big enough to discourage an Indian charge, but they are struggling to get a separation as they mount the slope to the ridge tops. This could be the point where a few volleys are fired down the valley by Company F to freeze the Indian pursuit and create some separation/time for Custer to reach the Ridges.
More later Cheers
Ian Beat Tunisia 1..0 Exciting after the France game.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 26, 2022 13:41:52 GMT
I can't find fault with anything you propose Mac, sounds on the money to me. I forgot about E Company walking with horse in hand up to cemetery ridge, it makes sense then that they formed skirmish line. What do you think about Keogh's company acting in a defense line with F and E, as I don't think they were as attached to L and C as I initially thought. Custer would be trying to stop the Indian advance and would be focusing on being eveloped rather than planning a retrograde in stages, so the move by "I" could have been forced and not planned. The problem is that we don't know just how far Keogh was in any defense line, was he facing east? Was he the end of a U shaped defense (E-F-I)?
I watched that game Mac, it was better than our game, we looked rather flat, but we always seem to play bad against the lower teams . Wales got beat, and we play them next week, they have to beat us to progress so I expect a hard match with the "Taffs" sticking the boot in Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 28, 2022 18:14:29 GMT
Just heard the sad news that Fred has died. Can't say much more now.
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Post by rollingthunder on Nov 28, 2022 19:01:50 GMT
Just heard the sad news that Fred has died. Can't say much more now. Fred Wagner???
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