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Post by quincannon on Oct 31, 2022 15:41:26 GMT
The root of the word cavalry comes from the French "cheval" meaning horse, and the extended meaning of cavalry is anyone who primarily fights mounted or uses the mount as a means of mobility.
Weapons do not define what cavalry is. Their mission or reconnaissance, security, and deep penetration define them, regardless of the weapons they carry.
The applicable lesson here is never bring a knife to a gun fight, and on the western plains of 1876 everything was a gun fight.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 31, 2022 23:03:37 GMT
How about getting back on the subject of this thread, instead of trivial pursuits.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 1, 2022 1:49:36 GMT
OK Companies C,I,L are not found on or near Last Stand Hill so at some point it was thought advisable that they should leave and head back towards the South; perhaps, but not necessarily, to rejoin one or both of Benteen and Reno. We can never know.
At the time this decision was made Company L was able to retrograde quite easily.
Firstly, I base this on the Indian accounts from the Northern Valley that one group rode out of the valley over the hill and kept going, while another group (Company E; Grey Horses) retrograded up the hill, leading their horses and firing towards the Indians, until they stopped at some location on Cemetery Ridge.
This account means that the decision for Company L to leave was made in the Northern Valley before the retrograde began. The only other possibility being that Calhoun made the decision without consulting his commander; I think this unlikely.
Secondly: Gall says he saw a "Custer" group moving slowly South along the back of Battle Ridge. Red Hawk independently says the same thing. Hence Company L had no problem reaching Calhoun Hill.
The sequence then is Company E remain in contact and make a fighting retreat to Cemetery while Company L move directly to Calhoun Hill where they are fixed by an Indian force.
I will leave some discussion time before any more.
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Nov 1, 2022 2:54:07 GMT
Got to think about this a bit, but my first notion is that it is a great leap of faith to put the label L on that unit that moved out first.
Post more tomorrow after a bit of pondering.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 1, 2022 23:55:56 GMT
Well I have had some time to consider this hypothesis, and my conclusion is that we do not have nearly enough information to follow any company with the exception of Company E, and draw any further conclusions about how or when they moved and under what circumstances the movement was made. The only way we can track E is by the color of their horses which stood out amidst the confusion of battle. Is this what I wish? Heavens no. But it is what we are stuck with.
What we are pretty sure about is that at least four companies, and possibly all five, moved to the northern sector and some circumstance, most probably command and control disintegration, caused all five to start to the rear. In what sequence, is, and will remain, unknown. We know, if the basic proposition is correct that Company C moved the furtherest distance from the northern sector. Evidence suggests that Company L had a head on clash with Indians coming from the south, as did C. Company I is largely unknown, but their position seems to suggest getting hit in one or both flanks while in transit, or at a temporary halt.
I am very skeptical about any unit moving at anything but a brisk pace, and "slowly south" does not seem to fit the circumstances. Slow is relative anyway.
So, I am not sure anything conclusive can be drawn from this discussion, although it will be fun to try.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 3, 2022 6:40:30 GMT
I am not sure anything conclusive can be drawn from this discussion, although it will be fun to try. Correct QC.
I start from my proposition that all 5 companies went to the Northern Valley. The Indian accounts give me the impression that the fighting there, by the Indians, was initially defensive in nature intended to hold Custer while Indian reinforcements arrived.
The archaeology shows that the Indian force, as it grew, was moving along the West side of the river and hence around Custer's flank and North East into a typical Indian "Half Moon" formation. The accounts say that some Indians, Wolf Tooth among them, had positioned themselves on the ridge where the monument now stands. My view is that seeing this situation evolve Custer opted to end his assault and retrograde. I am sure that by this point he was taking casualties, but I suspect that more so he realized that the backdoor was shut and locked and it was time for him to leave. The accounts say that when Custer returned to the ridge the Indians simply dropped off it and rode away to the East. Clearly at that time the Indians still had a healthy respect for Custer's force. I think this is when Companies E and L received their orders (as above). Why do I say Company L? Next post. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Nov 3, 2022 16:06:51 GMT
1. All five companies - concur, providing that one of those companies may have been held in Custer's direct rear to act as a close in rear guard, watching for people like Wolf Tooth
2. Defensive until reinforcements - concur as long as you consider Number three as a concurrent event
3. Moving around the northern flank - concur
4. Monument now stands - maybe, but as of now nonconcurance. LSH area too close to Custer's rear if one through three are correct.
5. Back door shut - Do not concur. The back door was south along Battle Ridge. There was nothing shut and locked about that back door. Not then. That would change.
6. Generally speaking I believe the above gives Custer too much time to sort things out. I do not believe he had that amount of time. He lost that battle on first contact and, in my view, the disintegration started a first contact.
7. As far as Indians closing in or backing off is concerned, I tend to think that is normal. You throw a lasso and keep it loose until you are damned good and ready to draw it tight, and subdue the steer.
8. Received their orders - Nonconcur. If I am correct on Number 6, nothing in the way of directive orders were issued with the exception of fall back, move out, get out of here.
This is fun. -
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 4, 2022 1:54:50 GMT
1. All five companies - concur, providing that one of those companies may have been held in Custer's direct rear to act as a close in rear guard, watching for people like Wolf Tooth 2. Defensive until reinforcements - concur as long as you consider Number three as a concurrent event 3. Moving around the northern flank - concur 4. Monument now stands - maybe, but as of now nonconcurance. LSH area too close to Custer's rear if one through three are correct. 5. Back door shut - Do not concur. The back door was south along Battle Ridge. There was nothing shut and locked about that back door. Not then. That would change. 6. Generally speaking I believe the above gives Custer too much time to sort things out. I do not believe he had that amount of time. He lost that battle on first contact and, in my view, the disintegration started a first contact. 7. As far as Indians closing in or backing off is concerned, I tend to think that is normal. You throw a lasso and keep it loose until you are damned good and ready to draw it tight, and subdue the steer. 8. Received their orders - Nonconcur. If I am correct on Number 6, nothing in the way of directive orders were issued with the exception of fall back, move out, get out of here. This is fun. - As to 1 and 4. I like the idea of rear guard in 1. Does this not mitigate 4?
5. Misunderstanding of my poor writing. The back door I was referencing was the back door to the village. The Northern approach.
6. I think that the fact that there were still identifiable Company groups for C,I,L,E,F with relevant officers and sergeants attached, intact, at the end; argues that there was no collapse in the valley.
7. Agree to the analogy. Remember too there is an Indian account that says there was a waiting period (perhaps 20 minutes) at this point in the action.
Now I move on.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 4, 2022 2:09:46 GMT
Let's say for example that Company L is the rear guard you suggest above. Who knows, but I like the idea and the geometry.
Someone leaves immediately according to the Indian account. Simplistically Company E gets the furthest South so they are first to go.
Some evidence to support the simplistic.
Some time ago there was a discussion here as to whether the spacing of L,C,I on Battle Ridge supported them moving in bounds along the ridge. Mike was a key participant and our final decision was that there was no evidence to support this idea at all. My point in mentioning this is that, the possibility that a company (any of C,I,L; can't be any other) left the retrograde from the valley and took up a position to be the first step in a bounding movement is not supported by their finishing points.
Secondly there has never been any archaeological evidence of any of Custer's force deploying to Battle Ridge (makes the name vaguely ironic).
Consequently I say the conditions were such that Custer felt emboldened to simple start a move back South by sending Company L to Calhoun Hill or elsewhere (again who knows). Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Nov 4, 2022 14:52:43 GMT
Better explain what I mean by a rear guard in this instance. Normally a rear guard is one terrain feature behind the main body. Not looking at that in this instance. Rather a force left in the very near rear to insure that there are no surprises from that quarter. Wolf Tooth or some other force, although they might be relatively small could upset the apple cart if Custer launched his assault without some unit tasked to look out for such an eventuality. As far as distance away is concerned, supposing that Custer reached the flats around the river crossing I would envision a company. remaining on say Cemetery Ridge or Battle Ridge Extension.
By the way if that happened my nominee would be Company I. Custer being Custer would want his relative and friends to be the assaulting force. Don't think Keogh would be counted among either.
I think you meant Company L, not Company E, being first to leave.
First to leave. Actually Company C got the furtherest away, not by much, First to leave could be C or L. and the evidence that they were stopped could apply to either of them. C was certainly stopped on F-F Ridge. It could be that seeing C stopped, L veared off to the left toward the eastern ridges and was stopped in the same manner we suspect they were at Henryville, with a second meeting engagement. I don't think it really matters one way or the other.
Moving by bounds nearly always leaves someone holding the bag. If, and it's a big IF, they were trying to break contact by bounds it was C,I, and L being the intended bounders and E and F holding the bag. Don't think that is the case. Believe they were all instructed, or came to the conclusion, it was time to leave. Three made it temporarily Two did not. There was most probably a good reason for E and F getting fixed, and it was most likely loss of mobility. Anyway, the distances C and L traveled would mitigate against withdrawing by bounds. They would have stopped further north in both instances were that the case.
More and more it looks to me as what occurred is a sudden and nearly complete breakdown in command and control, followed by a helter skelter attempt to withdraw, only to have that lasso pulled tight.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 4, 2022 21:16:15 GMT
Some time ago there was a discussion here as to whether the spacing of L,C,I on Battle Ridge supported them moving in bounds along the ridge.
I go for L leaving first, C second as the Indians on greasy grass ridge noted a bunch of soldiers coming off the ridge and ending up on FFR, I am sure that this was after L was in skirmish because the Indians where attacking them.
Both L and C seemed to put down defencive fire before being roughly handled, but I cant find any evidence that Keogh formed any type of defense, this is the period which the Indians call the "buffalo hunt", the soldiers ran for their lives. Keogh could have been forced into this area by forces coming around from the east and it could have been I Company that made any snipers on LSH move out of the way. Keogh could have been in a mess when he bumped into the survivors from L and C.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Nov 4, 2022 23:44:47 GMT
Do you intend to say the Indians on Greasy Grass Ridge were attacking Company L? Where is that and how could I have miissed it. There is a great distance between Calhoun Hill and Greasy Grass Ridge, and if I remember correctly it is not direct line of sight.
I measure the distance between Calhoun Hill and Greast Grass Ridge to be a shade over 600 meters.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 5, 2022 12:46:20 GMT
Do you intend to say the Indians on Greasy Grass Ridge were attacking Company L? Where is that and how could I have miissed it. Wow! a touch of sarcasm
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 5, 2022 12:57:10 GMT
Do you intend to say the Indians on Greasy Grass Ridge were attacking Company L? Where is that and how could I have miissed it. There is a great distance between Calhoun Hill and Greasy Grass Ridge, and if I remember correctly it is not direct line of sight. I measure the distance between Calhoun Hill and Greast Grass Ridge to be a shade over 600 meters. No, I didn’t say that at all, the main threat to L Company seemed to be from Henryville.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 5, 2022 12:58:15 GMT
There was a large group massed on greasy positions, we have a good idea of this because of the cartridge finds. They must have unleased at lot of fire against this foray made by C Company.
Some say that the assault from greasy grass gained momentum as it ploughed through C up to L. This assault cost the Indians a few casualties including a chief. Funny enough Mac, Two Eagles said that FFR, Calhoun hill and the Keogh position were all moving fights, with no major stands, the only proper stand was made on LSH. Then we have Lone Bear saying that short stands were made on both FFR and Calhoun Hill with a heavy stand made around the Keogh sector. Ian
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