mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 28, 2022 6:01:00 GMT
This has been roaming around in my head. Ian posted some good thoughts recently on this topic and so spurred me to start this discussion. I am sure no conclusions will be reached but discussion stimulates thought.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 28, 2022 6:32:58 GMT
Company E
Company E is the one most mention in accounts. Here are some thoughts. I naturally view this from my perspective that Custer did not go to Ford B.
Company E is mentioned as being seen on the bluffs from Reno's position in the valley. I can see nothing tactically significant to be gained from this observation.
Company E is mentioned as being in Medicine Tail Coulee perhaps down some distance towards the river.
My thought is that this is likely to be Custer sending them down the Coulee towards the river to act as security against an Indian attack from the village. If this is the case then it would seem likely that, when the rest of the command has exited from MTC, Company E would be the last to leave and consequently at the rear. This would work well with the JSIT account where Wolf Tooth says Company E were the rear guard as they were heading North. Company E is mentioned as presenting at the river in the Northern Valley. They are then recorded as retreating away from the river and up onto Cemetery Ridge. In my mind I see them deployed to move down from around Cemetery Ridge and along the river to the point where they engage the Indian defenders. Their retreat would them be simply retracing their path back to CR. There is, of course, plenty of time in that to allow for Smith and others to be wounded and evacuated to Last Stand Hill in the retreat. They then spend their time fighting from Cemetery Ridge. When Last Stand Hill falls their position on Cemetery Ridge becomes untenable and those that can run off the ridge and along the (poorly named) South Skirmish Line to a finale in Deep Ravine. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 28, 2022 7:00:11 GMT
Hi Mac. I deleted that map and post because it was so bad, but I'm out of practice.
You mentioned in your post about E Company being the most numerous Unit being sighted, so I wonder if they were separate from the main body from the get go and skirted Custer's left flank all the way.
C Company is the unit which had the most stragglers and is regarded as being the tail unit in the column.
I can't recall any other Company other than E, which was seen on the bluffs, the other four may have been further back.
I can't elaborate anymore than this because I am in work.
But great post as usual.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Oct 28, 2022 15:08:04 GMT
If there is anyone that reads what I write and does not know by now that I deal in facts, then they have not been reading. When I speculate, and I do, it is labeled as speculation. That said
1. Company E is cited as being seen from the bluffs, and Mac sees nothing tactically relavent in the observation. By itself, no there is no tactical significance. The fact that no one mentions seeing any other unit on the bluffs from their own position in the valley could mean that Company E was the last in column, and the other companies had passed before Company E was sighted. That is not hard evidence of E being last, but it is certainly an indicator that they may have been. There is also no indication, nor in fact a need, for Custer's battalion to be in anything but a column formation in that area. It was tactically the right thing to do, for the purpose of fast movement. There would be no need to have flankers out on the left flank of the column at that point because the bluffs themselves protected that flank. The right flank is another matter entirely. So while it is not firmly established fact that Company E was the last in column, the indicators are that it was, and that in itself is tactically significant if one wished to further evaluate subsequent movements.
2. I can fully accept Company E being used as Mac described their possible use in Medicine Tail Coulee, as a column flank guard. I can also fully accept Company E's use as a flank guard in the coulee during the entire episode on the Luce-Nye-Cartwrigh ridge complex. I can even accept that Martini was dispatched from somewhere down that coulee while the ridge firefight was underway. It would then seem more than logical for Company E then to fall in at the rear of the column in time for Wolf Tooth to sight them and label them as the column rear guard.
3. The unknown factor of Company E "at the river" depends upon what "at the river" meant to the person making the statement. Was at the river feet wet? Was at the river on one bank? Was at the river a hundred or two hundred yards back and overlooking the river? When we say Timmermann captured the Remagen Bridge, we know exactly what happened. When we say "at the river" we don't, and never will for there is no one alive to explain what they meant by saying at the river.
4. If Company E was still on Cemetery Ridge when Last Stand Hill fell I would be greatly surprised. Not impossible of course, but not probable. More likely than not they were already at the final Deep Ravine position.
5. Company C last in column - regarded by whom, and by name if you please. Stragglers are not evidence of that being the case. There is also mitigating evidence of that not being the case. We in fact do not know of how many stragglers there actually were, nor do we know what companies they were from --- do we? No we do not. What we do know is that there were four from Company C, Thompson, Watson and two more.
This is not the place to relitigate Thompson and Watson, but we can say something about the other two. Wagner labels them without any justification that I am aware of, as shirkers and cowards. That may be the case, and they may have been bad soldiers, but I do not know that either. What I know is that they said their horses gave out. I accept that story, unlike Wagner, until I see sufficient data making me withdraw that acceptance. It would seem to me if I was a coward and wished to shirk the upcoming battle, that being alone in Indian country would be the last place I would wish to be
So what do we know. We know there were four stragglers all from Company C by name. We do not know how many more there actually were, who by some means caught up with the column. Therefore there is absolutely no evidence that Company C was the last in the column except from those who put two and to together and find the sum total equals nine. It is anti-factual bull shit.
For Christ's sake people we are talking about the cavalry here, the mobile arm, the arm of decision. They move more, and change primary rolls, more often than most people change their socks. Think mobility. Think versatility. Think flexibility. What was once, a moment ago, is something different two minutes from now. That is how cavalry operates. You must adapt your thinking to them, and not expect them to fulfill your set piece minds.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 28, 2022 19:28:13 GMT
There would be no need to have flankers out on the left flank of the column at that point because the bluffs themselves protected that flank. The right flank is another matter entirely. I agree. Also I think we can have little doubt that Custer was, as he had been all along, moving as fast as he could.
By the time they get to the Archaeology (the W shaped trail of casings) on Nye Cartwright things are much more complicated and worthy of more analysis than we can do here.
"At the river" is a poor term. The accounts certainly say explicitly that they were never 'In the river". In fact by at the river I mean presenting a threat facing the river. In truth we do not know if Custer was able to ever make any kind of attempt at crossing the river. I suspect not. Let's leave that for later.
Ian I take your point about Company C given the Thompson account. Equally we cannot be certain of what was not seen.
If Company E was still on Cemetery Ridge when Last Stand Hill fell I would be greatly surprised. Not impossible of course, but not probable. More likely than not they were already at the final Deep Ravine position. Hard to be sure. Certainly the accounts relate that men ran off Last Stand Hill to go to where fighting was still in progress "below". I take below to be down to Cemetery and Company E. Where "exactly" not possible to say. The fact that we have Briody from Company F identified out in Deep Ravine with much of Company E, makes me think he had come down to them off Last Stand Hill in time to join them in the final retreat. No certainty in that of course. Must go now.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 28, 2022 19:50:25 GMT
Well Mac, we discussed the column over a decade ago, and C Company was favourite for the tail end, even Quincannon agreed, but I suppose things change, but the fact is that no one is 100% about this and about how Custer deployed once he mounted the bluffs. There are still those who are certain that he left three behind on battle ridge, which I have always found strange and me being just a civilian and all !
We are all doing quite a bit of speculating and if certain posters have been reading my posts over the last few years, you will see that I have always agreed that Custer split in MTC and moved in the same way as you discribed, always!
Custer said to Reno vis Cooke that he would be supported, so units showing on the high ground could show Reno that support was still around but heading north.
Hows that for speculation but can anyone trully say that I am wrong?, well they can speculate
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Oct 28, 2022 20:04:44 GMT
Mac: It is hard to be sure of anything under the circumstances
There were a hell of a lot of poor terms, defining poor as anything that is not specific in nature, and when you find one of those be sure to send me a telegram.
Ian, by this time is thinking I am picking on him. I'm not. My comment about stragglers is valid. We do not know how many, and never will. We know of only four and we know them by name, but just because they are the four we know, and they are all from the same company is not indicative of that company, Company C being in trail. If it were then we would have to conclude that no one further forward in the column had a horse give out on them, and that's possible of course but not plausable. If you look at it from another perspective had Company C been in the rear and these four miscreants had stopped, you could have every reason to extend that to the idea they were planning on deserting their posts. I don't buy that. Had they done that and survived there would have been a day of accountability, and accountability for that is standing against a wall.
Ian, I think also failed to take notice of another factor, one of mitigation I mentioned. Why would anyone ride to the end of the column to tell Tom Custer to send Kanipe as a messenger? Don't think they would. Maybe I am naive, but I believe that Kanipe was sent and Tom Custer sent him
Briody was in F, but he very well may have been with left with E when F left wherever they were. A little different circumstance but the same with Smith. You cannot hang anyone's hat on one individual being where there are not supposed to be in battle. Things go to hell in a handbasket much too quickly for that. There is an exception though, that being Tweed from L. L was found on Calhoun Hill more than a mile from where Tweed was found. Recall the account Tweed was found up the ridge from Kellogg. If anyone came off Last Stand Hill and made it to the final position where the bulk of E was found, I am about to lose a lot of rent money. They came off a hill, but it was not Last Stand Hill. That idea is laughable it is so improbable.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 28, 2022 20:12:31 GMT
Ian I have absolutely no problem with Company C being the last company in column at all. I just have a problem with it being last in column for the entire journey. The short answer is that we do not know and have no way of knowing. and because four stragglers came from that one company it is not evidence that Company C was last in line. It is evidence of four people from Company C dropping out, and that's all.
I can well see Company C being second to last, with E in trail. The E breaks off to assume a flank guard mission in the coulee while the rest deploy at the W. Those four guys dropped out before anyone went downhill and into that coulee.
My earlier comment above applies, "We are dealing with cavalry". Cavalry changes roles and missions in battle minute by minute. They may be trailing one moment, leading the next, and flanking fifteen minutes from now. That is their nature. That's what they do. That is how they are trained, and how they do operate.
Using your example that you label speculation. I would not think that speculation is the correct word. Any reasonable man seeing Custer's battalion or any portion of it on those bluffs heading north, under the prevailing circumstances, and having been informed of Custer intention, through Cooke, would come to that conclusion wouldn't he? This is the cavalry. That's what they do. probe then flank. I find nothing odd or speculative about that. In fact I think Custer intended to do just what he said he was going to do. Trouble is, the enemy always has a vote. Moving onto those bluffs armed with only the information Custer had was not the mistake. Going further north when he realized he could not render the direct support to Reno he had promised was the mistake.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 30, 2022 7:11:31 GMT
If there is anyone that reads what I write and does not know by now that I deal in facts, then they have not been reading. When I speculate, and I do, it is labeled as speculation. That said 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. ... For Christ's sake people we are talking about the cavalry here, the mobile arm, the arm of decision. They move more, and change primary rolls, more often than most people change their socks. Think mobility. Think versatility. Think flexibility. What was once, a moment ago, is something different two minutes from now. That is how cavalry operates. You must adapt your thinking to them, and not expect them to fulfill your set piece minds. Do you accept that Custer was Cavalry?
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Post by quincannon on Oct 30, 2022 14:03:37 GMT
Reluctantly.
Custer understood the fundamentals of what cavalry was supposed to do. I just have heartburn with the way he executed those fundamentals when he was in command. Cavalry operations have a way of making themselves look like they are wild and reckless, when reality is that everything that they do, if they are any good at their craft, is cold, and calculated before they take action. I think Custer had the look wild and reckless part down pat. It was the cold and calculating part where he missed the boat.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 30, 2022 22:58:34 GMT
Ian: The Comanche have long been considered the finest light cavalry that ever existed on Planet Earth, and they did not have even one saber
Where does it say cavalry MUST be armed with sabers? The saber, at least in the United States became a useless piece of crap, that some idiot said we must carry, because we are cavalry. The truth is that the saber was as obsolute a weapon of war as David's sling shot, once the revolving pistol came into use. When you couple that with United States Army doctrine being based upon dragoon doctrine where the soldier rides to battle, dismounts, and utilizes his most lethal weapon, the carbine, then what pray tell is the usefulness of the saber?
If Custer did anything we can point to as being 100 percent correct in the Little Big Horn Campaign, is was his order to box the damned things up and leave the behind.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 30, 2022 22:58:37 GMT
Thank you.
In looking at Custer I found that he could calculate and he simply was lucky besides being a Lion when he so chose. His own words example a grasp or feeling for timing and manipulation. Whether he was any good is the relevant twist and his 1876 jaunt suggests he had run out of luck. I don't attribute that to him beyond being poor with HR.
Mounted warfare against the Plains tribes was charge and counter charge and this took place with Crook at Rosebud. That was the essense of the mounted Sioux and Cheyenne. Charge them and they retreat and continue until the pursuit halts. This was what Custer expected until he discovered differently and companies began losing their led mounts.
Holding off the hhostiles allowed them to get at the held horses and that was game over. Wow, I managed to avoid the flow of battle.... Yey.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 30, 2022 23:57:02 GMT
Yeh indeed. You brighten my day with common sense.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 31, 2022 6:31:39 GMT
Ian: The Comanche have long been considered the finest light cavalry that ever existed on Planet Earth, and they did not have even one saberI am a traditionalists, cavalry in Britain and even to this day carry sabres, maybe only in occasions but they still have them. If I showed one of my friends a drawing of a soldier with a sabre, 9 out of 10 would say he was a cavalry man, give him a lance and it would 10/10. Sabres did go out of use in the American army, the use of fire arms rose during your civil war, one source says that cavalry ditched the sabre in favour of carbine, shot guns and plenty of pistols. Bottom line is that when I see the house hold cavalry marching in London they have sabres. Ian
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Post by herosrest on Oct 31, 2022 10:01:14 GMT
So,...................... Lancers are cavalry? The tip of the spear. What do you call an angry Sioux? Shake Spear!
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