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Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2022 8:00:44 GMT
Mac: There is only one man ever born of woman that can answer that question, him being Frederick Benteen. Anyone else that tries to answer is bull shitting you. They are not telling you how Benteen thought. They are telling you how they think Benteen thought, and how they think is not a truthful answer to the qustion you asked.
Now, if you rephrased the question, asking how do any of us think Benteen would interpret the note then you will get a truthful answer.
Mine would be - Come to the Bar B Q, and make sure you bring the steaks and beer with you. Simply, come to me, and bring those packs, and come as quickly as possible. Problem is that the note does not give the address where the party is being held, so Benteen can only assume to come to the place where all the noise is. It is sort of like being invited to a party at George's house, and you ask you wife where George lives, and she tells you it is on the other side of town. You know its over there somewhere, but still don't have all the information you require to get to George's house.
There are a few implied (not stated) tasks within the note as well, exemplified by - If I am to bring the beer, people will be ready to drink it when I arrive, so I had better make sure it is cold. Translated - Custer will probably need ammo, and perhaps medical supplies, but he won't need food and baggage immediately, so I had better get the ammo and medical mules further forward in the trains, and possibly move them faster than the rest. A couple more, but you get the drift.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2022 15:00:37 GMT
Neither the original order or your version of it is clear and concise. It sort of tells me where to go (come to me) and what to do (bring the packs and link up).
Come On. Okay. I get this. Go to wherever Custer is. Martini should know the way and should stop me from following Reno's trail to the left, because he was with Custer and knows they went right, up the ridge, through the future Reno Battlefield, but not to Gradma's house. Oh, by the way, Custer did not give me any scouts, so I have to trust Martini. (Who I think is a dolt.)
Bring Packs. Okay. I agree with Chuck, Ammunition is probably paramount. I doubt if medical stuff is in the trains, but maybe. Benteen does not have a Doctor with him nor any supplies. Canipe has already been sent to the packs to get them moving. I'd send another messenger to them to tell them to split in two. Bring the Ammo ahead with B Troop escorting and the rest come on as they can.
Be Quick. Bringing the mules does not mean I will get their quickly. How jaded are my horses? Can I gallop the whole way or am I force to walk/canter/trot to get there.
Big Village. Well. DUH! The Scouts have been telling us this all along. Thanks.
This version might be marginally better.
Benteen.
Link up with me ASAP. Bring Ammo. Martini should know the way. If you see Reno bring him along. Don't spare the horses! Custer. P.S. I should have listened to you and kept the Regiment together. Oops. My Bad.
There is another issue. Martini had no clue as to where Benteen was, nor did Custer. Had Benteen continued his scout to the left and actually got to the LBH river valley, he would have been way out of position. It is only because he was a disgruntled cuss who decided that he was not doing anything constructive, turned NW to rejoin the regiment. Had he not, Martini (or Canipe) would probably not found him and run into the Packs. Conceivably, Martine would have had to ride all the way to the divide where Benteen was ordered to peel off, then Martini would have wandered the wilderness looking for him.
And if he did run into Reno, his duty is to hand him the note, brief him, tell him Custer wants all of them and move out. But at that point, Reno is in command of the Regiment (-) and Benteen is absolved of responsibility.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2022 15:37:35 GMT
Mike: Martini had no clue where Custer was. Martini only knew where he left Custer, which was south of Ford B, and had no idea where Custer had gone thereafter. Couple that with Custer not confiding his intentions to Martini. He did not tell anyone else either, for that matter. The only thing Martini could tell Benteen is that Custer's battalion had moved eastward onto the bluffs. That is not enough information to tell Benteen where Custer is. Not nearly enough.
Now, you are Benteen, and Martini comes to you with that note. You ride onward a bit to where Martini tells you that Custer left the valley and went onto the bluffs. At the same time you here the sound of battle to your front, further down the valley. What would you do, go onto the bluffs, which may be a wiold goose chase, or follow your training and instincts are ride to the sound of the guns? If you chose the former and I was your boss, I would instantly fire you, on the spot, for not exercising good judgment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2022 15:51:35 GMT
Chuck. I agree Martini would have had no clue about where Custer was, but he did(?) know how to get back to where he left Custer and I suppose the trail would be obvious.
Me? I want to think I'd ride to the sound of the guns, especially given the order I actually received. Apparently Benteen could see there was still fighting in the valley and he was going to go that way when he was directed toward Reno's new position by the Scouts.
Drunk or not, Lucky or Not, I think Reno did as well as anyone could have. Disgruntled or not, I think Benteen's actions were correct, including joining with Reno (who was senior and in command when he joined). After linking up with Reno AND had I heard more gunfire from the Northwest, I like to think I would have pressed him to ride toward the guns. But first, and it may not have occurred to me, it would seem logical to send some skilled Scouts or maybe Weir (who also had some good instincts at the time) to find out what is going on, while the Regiment (-) consolidated, reorganized, and figured out what was going on. I don't really have a problem with Reno's selected course of action regardless of how or why he did it.
The battle does not always go to the better commander, instead it frequently goes to who screwed up less. In this case, Reno screwed up less than Custer.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2022 15:57:44 GMT
Problem with following Martini Mike is that had Custer gone to Ford B as I believe most of us think was his intention, it would take Benteen twice as long or more to get to Custer, and by that time the issue may have been decided, perhaps unfavorably. If Benteen was to follow orders and be in haste to reach Custer, as is directed in the note, down the valley toward that sound was the best, and fastest way, and remember those trains too.
Again, we can't get into Benteen's mind. All we can do is examine the choices available to him, based on what we know of what he knew.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 17, 2022 16:13:42 GMT
Thanks for the film HR. If that is Ford B its interesting because if the ground is little changed from what it was in 1876, it shows its fordable. I don't know how much shallower it would been in 1876 vs the time of the film or today since I obviously not tried to ford it. I cannot identify the ford. No one involved in 1926 survives to tell of the location or event. My guess for the location is somewhere of the Ford D area because of what I understand of the events which took place and marches over the terrain by 7th Cavalry with Godfrey leading them onto the battleground. That is over the Ford D route up to the cemetery.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2022 16:18:19 GMT
Agree. On the other hand, had he followed Reno's path, he likely would have run into a bunch of Indians and then have trouble extracting himself or following Reno, but then, maybe he would have spooked the Indians.
IF IF IF...
I constantly have to remind myself communications of any sort were much slower and I still do not fully understand the limitations of horses. I knew as a child one should not trust them and now in my old age, I doubt - even if I wanted to, which I don't, that I could mount one, much less control it.
I have a hard enough time thinking at the speed of light (infantry) or at the speed of attack helicopters.
For the most part, I believe that most of the people in charge did as well as they could. I like to think I would not make the same mistakes Custer did, but I would probably make new ones, and they may not work out any better.
Sometimes you get beat through no fault of your own. The other guy was just better or luckier.
In the long run and the big picture, the outcome of Powder, Rosebud, and Little Bighorn battles did not really have any affect on the end of the pacification/subjugations of the Indian nations.
It is interesting and frustrating to think about how the apparent lack of progress of the early peoples in the America's diverged and lagged behind that of Europe and Asia in a way similar to that of Oceania and Australia and perhaps to a lesser extent Africa. Lack of large domesticated animals such as the horse and cow, a limited population (although some accounts say one could smell the cooking fires well out to sea as you approached North America), large food resources, even without farming, resulted in a lack of 'progress'.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2022 16:44:22 GMT
HR: From the still photos I mentioned, it looked to me as if Fitz Lee Jr, was leading his troops north toward LSH. I am quite sure those troops were located on Battle Ridge when those photos were taken. What I don't know is when during the event they were taken.
Mike: I always go on the premise that everyone invloved did the best they wre capable of, except when the record is quite specific that they did not.
One mistake you would not have made is going north of Ford B. Any of us may have screwed something else up, but only a complete idiot or a man so filled with hubris, which may be the same thing, would have gone north of his own free will. What we do not know is if Custer was forced to go that way. I don't think so, but it is certainly a possability.
And if we had listened to Thomas Jefferson we would have solved the Indian issue by 1950, and the United States would be populated entirely east of the Ohio. Slavery would still be in fashion in more places than Mississippi, and Abe Lincoln would not have the opportunity to save the Union. Chitlins would have been a mandatory menu item for the Fourth of July, along with Moon Pies and RC Cola.
The course of history is uneven. Its general thrust is forward, but it tends to go sideways when we least expect, or afford, it to happen. Such is out time, but tomorrow is another day, which some fold dread, but the majority welcomes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2022 16:50:12 GMT
I happen to like Moon Pies and Ice Cold RC Cola. Chitlin's, greens, and grits ... not so much.
Watched "The Glory Guys" for the first time yesterday ... stumbled upon it. The plot was obvious for anyone mostly asleep. The romantic interest was stupid. And the farewell seen where the officers kissed their ladies while the troops and their wives just had to stand there. Then None But the Valient (Only the Valiant?) tried to show up, but I elected to bypass that.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2022 16:55:22 GMT
I have had RC Cola quite often, and like it. Last time I had a Moon Pie was in 1962 at Fort Jackson. Have not seen one in a store for ages.
The only thing chitlins, greens, and grits are good for is providing an excellent reason to puke. The south deserves them. They are part of their penance for committing treason.
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