Custer's salvation

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2022 14:34:05 GMT quincannon said:

Mac: Had Reno been able to withdraw, Ford A is exactly where he would have gone, Custer's expectation or not. He could not withdraw because he was surrounded. Even then, after he broke out from encirclement he was headed in that direction, and ended up crossing the river at a less than desireable fording place, then up the bluffs, because the Ford A option was taken from him, by Indians getting in front of him, and between himself and that ford. It is like playing Chess and being put in check. The move you must make to get out of check, may not be one you desire to make, it is the move you have to make.

(Mike)  AGREE.

Mike: Martini left Custer with the message before Custer got anywhere near Ford B, which I firmly believe that Custer intended to use. I see no reason to doubt at that juncture (Martini leaving) Custer was in the process of doing just what he told Reno he would do - support Reno's attack. After Martini left that notion of supporting Reno was overcome by events, of which Martini had no knowledge.

(Mike)  DISAGREE.  You  are correct Custer sent Martini before they could see Ford B, but they Martini did claim they could see the village.  If Custer was going to try and take the pressure off Reno by trying a flanking attack, fine.  But he DID NOT tell Reno, thus I do not 'feel' there was any intention of going to his support, except maybe indirectly (a flanking attack is a valid method and an indirect one at that.  Clearly, I "feel" Custer has a psychic link to B.H. Liddell Hart.

Further, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Benteen was going to Reno. I believe he fully intended to go to Custer, and where Reno was is where he expected to find Custer as well. Benteen literally rode to the sound of the guns, and expected both Reno and Custer to be the source of the sound. I also believe that when Benteen was diverted onto the bluffs by those three scouts waving to him and saying with their signals, come this way that he also expected to find both Reno and Custer together. What was his first qustion to Reno - Where is Custer? He wasn't referring to Custer being out in the wild blue somewhere. He was saying where is he, why isn't he here.

(Mike)  I TOTALLY AGREE.

Why Custer went north beyond Ford B, is a question we will never be able to positively answer. We can only speculate on the answer, but no one, regardless of how good a speculative reason they provide, will ever be completely sure that answer is correct, myself included. The only people that know that answer, died on the afternoon of 25 June. Even the Indians do not know, so in that sense it is a waste of time and effort to chase that particular holy grail, and neither you or I are named Sir Percivil.

(Mike)  AGREE.  But my wife does tell me I have a Lancelot/Don Quixote type of attitude.  Not everyone died.  We just don't have good accounts by the victorious survivors of what really happened.  Oral History and tradition not withstanding.  (There is an important difference between Oral History and Tradition.)

Why would Benteen send Martini? Because he could, and did. Ask him when you get to Fiddler's Green. Not something I would have done, but it could be that Martini made an outstanding Pasta Prima Vera, and Custer like Pasta Prima Vera. Also we do not know if Benteen sent him do we? He could have been asked for. Maybe Martini was a better trumpeter than Harry James  and Custer liked music with his pasta. The bottom line in this sarcastic scree is that Benteen sending him, or not, like many other aspects of LBH, are just unknown and will remain so, and we assume the answers to our own detriment.

(Mike)  Spare me the sarcasm.  It could be the SGM asked Benteen's 1SG for a messenger.  My 1SG would have sent someone if the BN CSM told him without necessarily telling me.  But why would I, Benteen, or the 1SG send my bugler?  And particularly one who didn't understand English.  Custer had at least one.  It's a mystery.  I will find out when I dismount at the Green.  Not sure how I will get you the message though, because cavarlymen seem to turn back before they get to the warmer scene.  And no one comes back from there, especially infantry, engineers, artillery, and marine.  And do not discount my breaking of Terry's encoded message to Sheridan.  I 'feel' my cryptographic skills solved that mystery.

[quincannon]

The fact that Custer did not tell Reno is a matter of historical record and I do not dispute that. The fact is that Sam Houston did not tell anyone what his intention was until he formed his troops and ordered the attack at San Jacinto either. It was the 19th Century, not today, nor is it back in our day, when such things would be unthinable. Custer committed a grevious error by not informing Reno of any details of his intention other than - you will be supported. It was a different time Mike, and in an attempt to understand we must try and wedge ourselves into that time, and not judge it by the standards of ours. It was still a bad mistake, but NO ONE, not you, not me, can say that Custer was not committed to support Reno, and events and Indians had a vote that prevented it. I tried, but couldn't because of ____ is still a valid defense at a courts martial.

Lancelot? Does that mean you have the hots for Guinivere?

Survivors with knowledge of Custers decisions? Who?

Mike the point was not the Prima Vera or the trumpet. The point was we don't know why Benteen sent Martini. There is no historical record that addresses the issue. In any event Benteen did not send his trumpeter. He sent one of the two trumpeters assigned to Company H. Not everyone can blow a trumpet. It takes talent, so let's just take a ride down speculation lane. He has two trumpeters. He is told to send one. He sent the one who can blow a trumpet and little else. He ratains the one who could blow a trumpet and make himself more useful. It was Benteen's decision as far as we know. Not your's, Not mine.

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2022 15:46:10 GMT quincannon said:

Lancelot? Does that mean you have the hots for Guinivere?

Yes.  But she also notes, I would not have acted on the urge, which I left out of my earlier statement.

Survivors with knowledge of Custers decisions? Who?

Not with knowledge of his decisions, but if he went to Ford D or whatever.  Indians.

[quincannon]

I was just wondering about Guinivere in that I have the hots for her too.

Knowledge of his decision of why he apparently did not or could not support Reno as he promised was the question. Indians do not have that knowledge.

Custer was diverted for some reason from Ford B. We do not know why. Crossing at Ford B was the only way he could fulfill his promise. You cannot support Reno from Ford D, even if Reno had managed to stay in place. The other issue involving the decision to bypass B and go to D was any hope he may have had of Benteen coming up, was like Tara - Gone With The Wind. In my view, Custer may have made completely correct, and rational decisions up to the time he bypassed Ford B. After that he was in Cloud Cuckoo Land, and his decisions were completely irrational.

[Deleted]

I didn't say they had knowledge of his decision. They had knowledge of where he went.

I don't maintain I would have done any better than Custer, though I think I probably would have followed Terry's orders. Who is to know?

[quincannon]

I have knowledge of where he went too. What we do not know, and never will know, is why.

I think you could have done much better than Custer, and so would I. Both of us would have obtained limited victories. I have no doubt of that, because both of us are schooled to operate within the capabilities of our commands. Neither of us, regardless of how comfortable we are with risk taking, is going to DO STUPID. DOING STUPID though is not because either of us are so smart. It is because we are smart enough to adhere to doctrine and the Principles of War, which was ingrained into us, sometimes by force, since bars were placed upon our shoulders by some significant, at the time, other.

Custer did not have all of what we have had to fall back on. Even Grant commented following the ACW that a West Point education was completely adequate for engineering and piss poor for war fighting.

[herosrest]

I'd like to put up a letter which was posted elsewhere recently, which goes to the heart of the post battle evolutions of opinion and views of events. It evolved and continues doing this. The letter is poigniant because of the unencumbered information offered, as given by Freeman. It is what it is and it is outside the loop of 7th Cavalry opinion - which is worthwhile. One who was there, to a colleague, relayed to another who was there, through one who was there by being close by and doing what everyone else was - fighting Indians on the Plains. It was never imagined then (when correspondance was made) that it would be available today, as it is and this is, is, wonderful. 

Anecdote link

Jan 1, 1970 0:17:46 GMT The One said:

A letter from General Anson Mills to Gen. E. S. Godfrey relating a conversation he had with General H. B. Freeman in Aug. 1876 on his knowledge of General Terry's understanding of Custer's role as the primary -- and independent -- attack force against the hostile village that summer, from the Francis R. Hagner Collection, Box 1, Manuscript Division, New York Public Library, with my annotations in brackets:


General Anson Mills,

U. S. Army, (Retired.)

No. 2 Dupont Circle,

Washington, D. C.



General E. S. Godfrey,

Cookstown, N. J.


My dear General:

Replying to yours of the 27th requesting particulars of a conversation I had with my most intimate friend, General H. B. Freeman (then a captain of the 7th Infantry) at the junction of the armies of Terry and Crook after the Custer massacre, I have to say that from the long lapse of time, I will not be able to state the exact phraseology of the language, but it made such an impression on my mind that I have retained the gist of it all these years.

There was much acrimonious discussion in the two armies and the public press throughout the country, the latter holding Terry responsible for the disaster, and I was anxious to get the opinion of Freeman, knowing his freedom from passionate prejudices, and I asked it. The gist of his reply was as follows --

"I went out with other officers to see Custer depart with his regiment. I was near Custer and Terry when they bade each other bood-bye [sic. good-bye]. Terry asked Custer if he felt his force was strong enough, suggesting that if not, he could add a battery of Gatlin[g] guns and a squadron of the 2nd Cavalry. Custer replied that he would prefer not to take either; that the wheels of the guns would impede his rapid march and add to the danger of discovery and prevent surprise, and that he felt that he would be stronger with his full regiment, in which he had confidence, than to be encumbered with smaller separate commands which would also make it more difficult for him to take the Indians by surprise which he hoped to do."

Freeman added that from the conversation he was perfectly sure that both Terry and Custer understood that it was expected for Custer to surprise and attack the enemy wherever found.

Yours very truly,

ANSON MILLS

Avoiding argument and rather just putting out there a reality of scuttlebuut wife's tales and old folk lore jumbled up in a ball of knitting yarn still being spun and done very well into abstract artforms; one pillar of Ford D is errant interpretation of Freeman's 1876 sketch map of the battleground by R.A. Fox and it is a whopper. The 7th Cavalry crossed the fords below the monument in 1926 and two troops were filmed doing it. They then rode onto Battle Ridge skirting the lower cemetery to below Monument Hill and east towards Calhoun, where they met a host in delegation of mounted Indians from Crow, Sioux and Cheyenne locals. There were 50,000 people watching across the weekend of that anniversary. At that time, a member of John Stands in Timber's family had heard of the 'Burying the Hatchet' ceremony at Garryowen and asked the battlefield superintendent for a marker to be placed for, Lame White Man. Nothing was done. 30 years later, John Stands in Timber re-invented the battle. He had considerable assistance in this from Charles Kuhlman who had also with the help of Brininstool, re-written the script of the Reno fight in the valley, by altering the location. I'm just pointing this out.

You have a bunch of people giving the history of the battle from the visitor center, and doing so unable to see Medicine Tail Courlee, Ford B, Deep Coulee or any of the terrain where what happened, happened and dreaming stuff up. It's art, Jim. But not as we know it.

Regards Gents.

[herosrest]

1926 

Charge!

[quincannon]

I have seen several dozen still photos from the 1926 affair, but never the film. Thanks.

For clarification, what ford is depicted in the film? Looks like it might be Ford B, but cannot tell for sure.

I find myself agreeing with Custer regarding taking the Gatling guns and the battalion of the 2nd Cavalry. For clarification battalions were battalions in the cavalry, just as companies were companies. The squadron and troop designations did not come back into official usage until 1883. Mills, in his letter to Godfrey is using the post 1883 terminology. Custer was concerned about mobility, and, oddly enough, unity of command. I would not want a weak sister like Brisbin with me either.

Now addressing your theory of how this all went down HR, I could almost buy it, hook, line, and sinker were it not for the final locations of Companies E and F. I need convincing that you are correct, but at the same time holding out the distinct possibility you are. Tell me how Companies E and F, got to where they were found, the complete circumstancial narrative if you please. That done, I can easily see where the remaining three companies were caught and pinned where they were as a result of a withdrawal from Ford B. I have often said here and other boards as well that the Company C position looks a lot like a rear guard delay trying to break contact from Indians in pursuit, coming across Ford B. I was generally laughed at for such a heritical notion, but that would not be the first or the last occasion.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the film HR. If that is Ford B its interesting because if the ground is little changed from what it was in 1876, it shows its fordable. I don't know how much shallower it would been in 1876 vs the time of the film or today since I obviously not tried to ford it.

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2022 16:55:50 GMT quincannon said:

I have knowledge of where he went too. What we do not know, and never will know, is why.

Chuck ,

In my view, I have no idea where Custer went. I only know where he ended up according to where some placed a marker.   I don't know if he went to Ford A, B, C, or D, but I am pretty sure he never went to Paradise Ford in Cocoa Florida.  

I wonder if he still talks about the battle at Fiddler's Green of if he's tired of it nearly 150 years of constant query?

[quincannon]

It was a generic WENT Mike - north of Ford B, and that's about all I know for sure too.

He probably still is at Fiddler's Green, forging Pete Rose baseball cards. He used to forge Brett Farve cards, but they have lost some of their value, in that Farve has been caught stealing Federal funds from poor folks. I told you that nothing good comes from Mississippi. By the way don't drink the water in Jackson, and if you visit the state capitol, and have to pee, you need to find an outhouse on the capitol grounds, because their plumbing does not work.

[Deleted]

I refuel and eat in Mobile,Al try to skip stopping anywhere in MS, try not to stop in LA, and make a rest stop as soon as possible in TX.

[quincannon]

I see that you nearly adhere to the Quincannon Rule of travel Mike. There is no civilization between San Antonio and Saint Augustine. It is a jungle of ignorance ant chitlins.

[mac]

I agree with most of the above and enjoyed the read.

My point re Reno withdrawal was that Custer may not expect Reno to stay in place as long as Reno did but that Reno would step back to Ford A while that move was available. This would have probably been better for Reno and Benteen and would also draw Indian numbers away from the village. IF (big if I know) Custer thought this, he may feel emboldened to push on to Northern end of the village.

I do not doubt that Ford B was fordable nor do I doubt that when Custer went right his intention was to use Ford B. I think this was his intention until he got there and saw the village controlled the ford.

I am certainly open to other interpretations but have yet to see a better one; actually supported by evidence.

Question

If the note said

Benteen

Come on. Bring Packs. Be quick. Big Village.

How would the Captain interpret the command?

Cheers