Movement from Nye-Cartwright to Ford D to Custer Hill

[Deleted]

This takes up where I left off in the Boniface thread in Historic Maps.  (https://greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/998/bonafide-scans?page=2&scrollTo=26857)

I'm seeing some timing issues as I look at Fred's timelines and try to reconcile them with time/distance relationships. Let's not get into a fight at this point about whether Fred is right or wrong. There are some times that can serve as anchors, like Weirs arrival at Weir Pont and observations of LSH that can help us out here.

Here is a partial list.

*Custer departs Calhoun Hill about 1430
*L CO deploys on Calhoun Hill about 1428
*Custer at Ford D at about 1445.
*Weir arrives at Weir Peaks at about 1454 and observes battle in progress at LSH?
*L CO Destroyed at 1518
*Custer arrives on Custer Hill about 1516
*The battle ends at about 1543,

I haven't worked out the time and distance relationships yet, but the events as listed seem incompatible with the movement of 5 companies toward Ford D. For example, How can Calhoun move toward Ford D, probably as tail end Charlie, with Custer Arriving at there at 1445, but he is deployed and left behind at 1428? This timing appears particularly problematic if Custer moves to Ford D by bounds.

Now this is moving beyond a discussion of the Bonaface Map, so I am going to open a new thread by copying this point in the Ford D topic. Let's switch the discussion there.

I'd like someone to lock the "other" thread, please to avoid having to look in multiple threads.

[quincannon]

I do not think Weir saw anything that was happening at LSH, with the possible exception of smoke, dust, and perhaps some noise, which I believe would be hard to differentiate from the sounds of battle that were much closer to his location. If he saw anything from that location it would more than likely be the actions being conducted by C and L which would be in full view from Weir Point. I discount him seeing anything of what was happening to Company I, as they would have been on the back (east) side of Battle Ridge, and blocked from view.

When I was a Weir I had a very good pair of Navy field glasses, given to me from my father. the type watch standers use, and I could only see the very top of the 7th Cavalry monument from my vantage point with those glasses. Now I was in the cut at Weir, on the road, and I readily stipulate that Weir would have been a bit higher, maybe five to eight meters, but it is my opinion that would still not be high enough to view anything in the LSH area sufficiently enough to determine what was going on.

I also believe (note the word I use here, not speculate) that the battle was mostly over, complete, except for the dispatching of wounded, and perhaps a small pocket here and there. I would suggest that one of those remaining pockets would be in Deep Ravine with Company E being the very last hold outs. You can see nothing of that area from Weir Point. My belief is based on the fact that the Indians turned on Weir, and the others then coming up so fast. They were in nearly all respects done with Custer. Even Weir, or someone with him I do not recall which, said he observed Indians firing into the ground, indicating at least to me the dispatch of wounded.

If I am correct, then one cannot help but dispute Wagner's time lines, even though that disputing may not be desired at this time.

There is also the matter of people from C and L companies being found north of their company's final location, T. Custer, 1SG Bobo, and Private Tweed come to mind, but there are others.

"How can Company L move toward Ford D at 1445 and be back on Calhoun Hill at 1428?" They can't. That is why I have insisted all along that Wagner tries to put too sharp a point on his pencil, and in my view fails in his efforts to attribute exact or even approximate times to events. He tries very hard though, and that should be appreciated. My thesis here is quite simple. You must first know exactly how the battle played out event by event in sequence, before you can possibly attribute times (exact, approximate, or otherwise) to these events. We do not have the requisite knowledge to do that. Had we, there would be no requirement for boards like ours or any discussion of the matter whatsoever. You could just pick up a book, and see the events laid out before you sequenced, and at that point knowing the start and approximate ending points you could fill in the individual event times with a fairly great degree of accuracy. 

[Deleted]

When I was a Weir I had a very good pair of Navy field glasses, given to me from my father. the type watch standers use, and I could only see the very top of the 7th Cavalry monument from my vantage point with those glasses. Now I was in the cut at Weir, on the road, and I readily stipulate that Weir would have been a bit higher, maybe five to eight meters, but it is my opinion that would still not be high enough to view anything in the LSH area sufficiently enough to determine what was going on.

I agree.  I was using Google Earth and their Viewshed tool and getting perfect lines of sight circles from places like Weir Point so I think something was wrong.  I haven't gone back to check.

I also believe (note the word I use here, not speculate) that the battle was mostly over, complete, except for the dispatching of wounded, and perhaps a small pocket here and there. I would suggest that one of those remaining pockets would be in Deep Ravine with Company E being the very last hold outs. You can see nothing of that area from Weir Point. My belief is based on the fact that the Indians turned on Weir, and the others then coming up so fast. They were is nearly all respects done with Custer. Even Weir, or someone with him I do not recall which, said he observed Indians firing into the ground, indicating at least to me the dispatch of wounded.

I agree with this as well.  I cannot imagine, particularly with binoculars of the era, that you would be able to see any detail beyond the dust being stirred up by the fight and inferring something 'bad' is happening.

If I am correct, then one cannot help but dispute Wagner's time lines, even though that disputing may not be desired at this time.

You are three for three with my agreement here.  I think his timelines are much too precise (and I told him so); at best within +/- 5 Minutes.  But there are some anchors:

• DeRudio saying he see's Custer vic 3411.  Now I am not agreeing he could actually see Custer - it's quite a ways and he gave Custer his binoculars, but I think he might be able to see Custer's Standard.  But I do note I was able to figure out where my daughters were on a ridge by a glacier in Norway at about 1Km, because of their clothing and then my high power zoom lens.  No dust though.
• Weir's time and observation at Weir Point.  Again, he could see the dust and smoke, but I would think no details.
• Time and Point of Martini's Dispatch.
• Time and place of observation Indians are switching their attention back to Reno (indicting when the Custer Hill action has climaxed.)
• Others?
  
  From these we can define some starting points and selecting a 'reasonable" route or path from Nye Cartwright to Calhoun Hill, Ford D, and back to LSH,  using d=r*t, an assumed Gait (and its associated speed), and road march calculations, we can determine relative times and (assumed) speeds and see what falls out.  From this we will discard some assumptions and generate others that may make more sense.

What would be the fun in just looking at a book and accepting everything it says?

[quincannon]

None at all. That's why we are all foolish enough to believe that determining what happened in this battle is a piece of cake when compared to Percival finding the Holy Grail, Helena discovering the True Cross, determining if the Shroud of Turin is actually the burial cloth of Christ, not to mention if Bonny Prince Charlie actually was a passenger on the boat to Skye. Then of course there is the Bermuda Triangle, but we will leave that to the maritime experts, and the whackos in Aluminum foil hats.

[Deleted]

I am not ready to start marking up the map with plausible routes, but here are some assumptions I am making:

Horse Gaits (I look especially to Steve to confirm these rough estimates from the web.

Gait	MPH	KPH	KMIH	Minutes to travel 1KM
Walk	4	6.4	5	12
Trot	10	16	12	7.5
Canter	15	24	26	4.5 (est)
Gallop	25	40	32	1.84
Charge	40	65	53	1.8

Even though you are trying to go a certain speed, you usually won't actually travel that far in a given time.

I am using KM because that is how I think about military things.  Sorry for you guys who only think in Imperial/English.


Gait while moving to contact :  Trot
Gait while bounding:  Canter
Gait while moving back to Battle Ridge from Fort D:  Canter

Maximum Effective Range of Carbine = 500m (probably too long give state of training)  This drives a supporting distance of 250-400 meters so the overwatching company can protect and support the bounding company by fire.
Maximum Rate of Fire = 5 - 7 rounds/minute maximum
Sustained Rate of Fire = 2 - 3 rounds/minute
Combined Ph/Pk = 0.4 (reflects poor training.  You have to get a hit to get a kill.  Misses of course trigger suppression.)


Company Strength = 40
Length of Company in Column = 40m
Width in column = 10m
Length of Company in Line = 10m
Width in line = 40 m.
Gap between Companies = 100m

Length of 5 Company Column = 600m
Length of 2 Company Column = 180m
Length of 3 Company Column = 320m

Width of dismounted skirmish line = 150m (30 troops on the line due to horse holders and officers behind the line)
Width of mounted skirmish line = 400m (actually a little shorter because officers would be behind the line)

Time to form dismounted skirmish line - 3 - 5 Minutes
Time to form mounted skirmish line - 2 - 3 minutes
Time to mount from dismounted skirmish line - 5 - 7 minutes (Horse holders bring horse forward, troops move toward the horseholders, unhook horses, mount, and form up).

[quincannon]

Mike I think something is missing from your calculations, and frankly I don't have any idea how to factor it in. I think it was missing when Wagner made his speed calculations too, and I had no more idea of how to do it now, than I did then.

When soldiers move, mounted or dismounted in enemy country, where contact is likely at any moment, there is a certain factor of caution of movement. They tend to be slower in pace, and much more deliberate. Problem is for these purposes, we have no idea of how cautious or how deliberate. That is a training issue, and also one of experience. the more experienced tending to be slower than those with lesser experience.

I bring this up, and it is sort of unfair of me to do so, in that I present a problem, with no solution being offered.

[Deleted]

QC: you are exactly correct. That’s why I’m using kilometers IN the hour instead of KPH.

I don’t know how to handle the case of forming skirmish line, etc. like I’ve said before, it would take my infantry platoon 20-30 minutes to mount ftom being deployed and partially dug in. We could easily double the times for those form snd reform tasks and not be “wrong”.

Not sure how to control bounds, successive or alternate. With a radio it’s easy. Set. Moving. Set. How to do it with horses and waving guides. Especially alternate bounds.

[deadwoodgultch]

Mike, I will deal with your initial post here.
Custer's could have left Calhoun Hill 2 mins. after Calhoun arrives and deploys, as we believe they separated prior to rejoining(2 companies and Hq. went for a look see towards the ford, 3 companies continued straight to Calhoun Hill from the mini skirmishes.

I whole heartedly agree with Chuck that the only action Weir viewed was that of C&L. Line of sight, smoke,  dust, and distance.

We must also remember that Fred thinks we are heretics if we believe 5 companies proceeded north and were attempting to retrograde back south. There are traditionalists and non traditionalists, I am amongst the latter.
Regards,
Tom

[Deleted]

I'm not concerned about how fast Custer could leave. My concern is if Calhoun gets there a time X and is destroyed at X + Y, how does he move from Calhoun to a position "near" Ford D and get back to Calhoun Hill in time to be destroyed. I have to work out the time distance.

I am 60% for 5 companies.

[deadwoodgultch]

Look, I am not a Custer fanboy,I can't imagine him leaving 3 companies behind while moving against an objective as large as he saw from 3411 or wherever he viewed that village from.

Regards,
Tom

[Deleted]

I decided to do a very rough time distance computation. First the straight line distance from the center of the largish closed contour hill 3300 to Ford D then to Calhoun Hill is 6.75 km. If we just trot the entire distance, not trying to be tactical at all, that would take 6.75 x 7.5 minutes = 50.625 minutes.

Taking a somewhat more tactical route the total distance is 7.3 (like I said, somewhat more tactical) = 54.75 minutes.

If they left at Nye Ridge at 1352 that means they reach Ford D and are back to Calhoun Hill at about 1402 going in a straight line. The battle ends at 1543 so maybe it is possible.

if they take the somewhat more tactical wrote they are back at 1406.

But, as Chuck says, things would likely be much less slower. A slower advance and more starts and stops as people look to see if there are any enemy about. At the walk, then things slow down some more: 12 minutes per km.

so straight line = 81 minutes putting their arrival at Calhoun Hill at 1433 in a straight line and more tactically in 87 minutes arriving at 1439. This is for the column head. Calhoun would be Tail End Charlie so he would be at least 2 or 3 minutes behind the rest.

But WAIT!   Wagner has Custer leaving at 1449 and Calhoun is engaged on his hill at 14:37! Except for the 1543 time (when Weir sees the dust cloud from his Point), all these times are calculated guesses, but it seems like there would be no way for Calhoun to move toward Ford D and still get back to Calhoun Hill when Wagner things he was engaged.

Things would go even slower if they were moving by bounds in a loose box formation instead of a continually moving single column as I used for my calculation here.  This is also assuming the whole column goes to Ford D and is in continuous movement, which I do not believe happened for an instant.  While I don't believe the column would execute a line ahead turn, neither would they all turn around at the same time.  If Calhoun were Tail End Charlie, he would not travel the full calculated distance, but he also would have hit the Start Pont (SP) about 7.2 minutes after the column head moves through it, putting him back on Calhoun Hill at 1446.

The timing seems a little suspect, but I have to check my map measurements and math again, because this was just a back of the envelope computation and I want to double-double check my distance measurements on my nifty new 12,500 scale map.

I'll put some illustrations up later.


    

[Deleted]

Oct 1, 2021 21:26:57 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

Mike, I will deal with your initial post here.
Custer's could have left Calhoun Hill 2 mins. after Calhoun arrives and deploys, as we believe they separated prior to rejoining(2 companies and Hq. went for a look see towards the ford, 3 companies continued straight to Calhoun Hill from the mini skirmishes.

I whole heartedly agree with Chuck that the only action Weir viewed was that of C&L. Line of sight, smoke,  dust, and distance.

We must also remember that Fred thinks we are heretics if we believe 5 companies proceeded north and were attempting to retrograde back south. There are traditionalists and non traditionalists, I am amongst the latter.
Regards,
Tom

tom,

I had to think about this for a bit.

Again, I'm not really concerned about when Custer left a certain position, but if the 5 company theory is correct (I am 60% in favor at this point), then Calhoun has to move past Calhoun Hill some distance toward Ford B, then turn around and get back to Calhoun Hill in time to deploy and be destroyed.  Things don't look right from my first rough attempt (see above this reply.)

I agree with you and Chuck about what Weir could see, but it is indicitive of the end of the battle.

I am not sure I understand you last sentance.  Custer did approach Ford D and did retrograde back to Custer Hill/Battle Ridge.  Whether he did it with 2 companies or 5, does not alter the retrograde action he undertook.

What was his possible intnet upon leaving Ford D?

--Return  to Battle Ridge to defend and wait for Reno/Benteen to link up and then move North again (and he had no idea of what was happening to them),
--Wait for them to link up and defend in place,
--Move South to find Reno/Benteen and find defensible ground elsewhere (with no idea of where they were).

[azranger]

Oct 1, 2021 17:48:13 GMT @mikerobel said:

I am not ready to start marking up the map with plausible routes, but here are some assumptions I am making:

Horse Gaits (I look especially to Steve to confirm these rough estimates from the web.

Gait	MPH	KPH	KMIH	Minutes to travel 1KM
Walk	4	6.4	5	12
Trot	10	16	12	7.5
Canter	15	24	26	4.5 (est)
Gallop	30	48	40	2.4
Charge	40	65	53	1.8

Mike 

I would use the 4 (3-5) for the walk and 10 (8-12) for the trot. A canter, lope, or military gallop are the same gait I would use 15. (12-18) Where I differ is the miitary charge gait or the western gallop. I would put that at no more than 25 (18 - max). At the charge gait you are asking the horse for max speed. All horses vary and that is reason that a charge gait would be ordered only close to enemy. To much spread if that distance expands. 

The only ones that were used often by the cavalry were the walk and trot. On a march 3.3 miles would be a good overall rate of travel.


Even though you are trying to go a certain speed, you usually won't actually travel that far in a given time.

Agreed horses do not have cruise control and if you don't let them increase speed in a gait then overall average is less than the rate of travel for the majority of the time.

I am using KM because that is how I think about military things.  Sorry for you guys who only think in Imperial/English.

Do horses know the difference?


Gait while moving to contact :  Trot Agree When moving to contact there is increase awareness in the rider and the horse senses it. I think they would move at the top range of a trot.
Gait while bounding:  Canter
Gait while moving back to Battle Ridge from Fort D:  Canter

Maximum Effective Range of Carbine = 500m (probably too long give state of training) Agree I believe it closer to 200 yards.  This drives a supporting distance of 250-400 meters so the overwatching company can protect and support the bounding company by fire.
Maximum Rate of Fire = 5 - 7 rounds/minute maximum
Sustained Rate of Fire = 2 - 3 rounds/minute
Combined Ph/Pk = 0.4 (reflects poor training.  You have to get a hit to get a kill.  Misses of course trigger suppression.) Agree We were taught only hits count in the Marine Corps. In law enforcement we have hit only counts for qualification. The scoring area is smaller than the human silhouette. A hit in the liver or groin area doesn't count but I sure that on a person it would count.  


Company Strength = 40
Length of Company in Column = 40m
Width in column = 10m
Length of Company in Line = 10m
Width in line = 40 m.
Gap between Companies = 100m

Length of 5 Company Column = 600m
Length of 2 Company Column = 180m
Length of 3 Company Column = 320m

Width of dismounted skirmish line = 150m (30 troops on the line due to horse holders and officers behind the line)
Width of mounted skirmish line = 400m (actually a little shorter because officers would be behind the line)

Time to form dismounted skirmish line - 3 - 5 Minutes
Time to form mounted skirmish line - 2 - 3 minutes
Time to mount from dismounted skirmish line - 5 - 7 minutes (Horse holders bring horse forward, troops move toward the horseholders, unhook horses, mount, and form up).

Thanks for sharing all this data and information.

Regards

Steve

PS I once took my quarter horse out for a wide open run because of another board. We reached a speed of 32 mph. I experienced tunnel vision and felt my horse had more control. I know cowboys ride at that speed occasionally but it is not something a patrol Ranger does. Most of my patrols were at the walk and trot. One time when lighting hit close by we got up to 20 mph. I have hundreds of mile recorded horseback patrol and the overall average was 3.2 miles per hour. Not far from the cavalry estimate of 3.3. Most patrols ended with close to a 3.5. Once you moved into mountainous areas it would drop into the 2s.

[azranger]

Oct 1, 2021 21:26:57 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

Mike, I will deal with your initial post here.
Custer's could have left Calhoun Hill 2 mins. after Calhoun arrives and deploys, as we believe they separated prior to rejoining(2 companies and Hq. went for a look see towards the ford, 3 companies continued straight to Calhoun Hill from the mini skirmishes.

I whole heartedly agree with Chuck that the only action Weir viewed was that of C&L. Line of sight, smoke,  dust, and distance.

We must also remember that Fred thinks we are heretics if we believe 5 companies proceeded north and were attempting to retrograde back south. There are traditionalists and non traditionalists, I am amongst the latter.
Regards,
Tom

You can put William in that same category for sure

[azranger]

Oct 1, 2021 22:13:05 GMT @mikerobel said:

I'm not concerned about how fast Custer could leave. My concern is if Calhoun gets there a time X and is destroyed at X + Y, how does he move from Calhoun to a position "near" Ford D and get back to Calhoun Hill in time to be destroyed. I have to work out the time distance.

I am 60% for 5 companies.

I think the eyewitness Curley has the answer. CIL never went to Ford B they moved straight across MTC and continued north to the Calhoun Area. I think Godfrey saw the trail that was placed by CIL after they egressed from Deep Coulee. I believe they moved east in Deep Coulee before climbing out and would have approached the Calhoun Area just as Godfrey observed.

I think CIL moved out BRE and was not close to Ford Ds. Travel from the known site of artifacts to the Calhoun Area could be done in minutes. 

Regards

Steve