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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 15:38:42 GMT
Here is my depiction of how the Custer's column would be deployed moving in a straight line down a road or trail utilizing a column of fours.
The Troop symbols are about to scale in terms of depth. Each troop would be 10 meters x 40 meters and the distance from the rear of the front company to the front of the next company is 100 meters. That makes the entire column 600 meters long. The formation width would compress and stretch based on the terrain and sometimes might require a column of twos.
(In the modern day, I usually moved the company in column, platoons in wedge, distance between tanks was usually 100m and distance between platoons around 1000m giving the company a front of about 300m and a depth of almost 3000m, but it could compress to a column with the tanks 25 meters apart in close terrain or could spread out in open terrain to as much as having 300m between tanks for a frontage of 900 meters. It constantly changed shape as we moved.)
This yields a minimum pass time at the walk of 7.2 minutes, I could see it easily doubling to 14-15 minutes and if everything was going well and the horses were feeling a little frisky I could see it going somewhat faster, say 4 minutes. This is all based on terrain and the degree of caution the unit is employing.
Steve or anyone: Do you think they would dismount and walk at anytime during this process/march?
Pass time is the time it takes for the entire column to pass a given point on the ground measured by when the 1st company gets to the point and by when the last company clears the point. This only used for administrative moves like a tactical road march, but it serves to illustrate how long it takes the column to move across a given point. In case anyone is wondering, I get the speed for the movement at the various gaits from FM 71-2, 1977, The Tank and Mechanized Infantry Battalion Task Force (Chuck: notice the branch in the lead. hahahaha) Appendix H which specifies how you compute road march tables.
I assume Custer is at the head of the column (Too much Hollywood of seeing John Wayne in front of the whole column, but it suits my image of how Custer might behave) although diagrams in Upton's Cavalry tactics show the battalion and company commanders and platoon leaders on one side and other officers and NCOs on the other side.
In addition, one set of four is detailed to the front, left, right, and rear at a distance of 100 - 500 meters from the column (marked by a crooked arrow with a "P", allowing it to compress and expand based on the terrain and visibility.
The Scout Detachment (most have been sent with Reno), marked with two crooked arrows and an "R", is at least 1000 meters in front.
Messengers would constantly be reporting to Custer as the column moved (and more importantly, he would send them back with instructions or more requests for information.)
One more detail to Custer provides 4 more messengers, giving him about 6 - 8 people he could use as messengers to the column: the group of 4, the SGM, the Chief Bugler, Martini, and maybe Cooke (The SGM and Cooke being used for the really important ones).
These are assumptions, not facts rooted in some current doctrine. Railroads at the time used some method similar to this to keep their track space safe and usable, but I detected no similar method in Civil War or Upton's tactics books.
(I really wish I could get Upton's complete book. Before I go much further, I need to reread the oldest Horse Cavalry FM I have which I think is from the 30s. I'll post what it is and a link so you can download it so you can read it when you have nothing else at all to occupy your time. Tactics and doctrine are important, even in this context, because it serves to give us a standard vocabulary and vision of what is happening.)
Anyone have real issues with this?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 16:26:48 GMT
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2021 17:11:49 GMT
Steve, you gave me the information I asked for. I guess you were a rifleman in RVN? How fast did you move on patrol? How fast did you move when you were attacking or moving between positions. I know it was a long time ago. whatever than speed was, it probably wasn't 2.5 miles per hour. I don't know if horse mounted troops would move faster. They have the advantage of seeing further than you do, particularly if you contrast the LBH with the Vietnamese jungle. As you suspect there was no set rate of travel on foot patrols. As Chuck suggested moving to contact or even a spot that looks like an ambush location would be slow less than 1 mph. I don't remember ever running fast unless it was to cover.A USMC COL and I were discussing a problem in RVN. I was horrified when he told me that for a company to move from where it was to join up with another company would take, at best 1.5 hours because I was used to figuring 5 to 15KPH to move between positions. Could go much faster if you were overwatching and order to move up next to a company in front because the route should already (ha ha) be cleared. I also must reiterate, I only commanded in simulated combat (albeit with laser engagements at the end) so my experience is probably mostly wrong. I would trust a USMC COL with experience. I also understand that you as an officer view things differently. I was a Corporal and had no decision on the where we would go and how long it would take. It wasn't until I moved up the ranks in LE that I began to understand purchasing, administrative duties, logistics, and planning a particular operation. For example we use PACE for a search warrant service. The primary plan could be call the suspect and ask him to come out, the alternate could be knock and enter, if no one is home the contingency would be to have a locksmith to open the house (we don't get to blow doors open) the emergency plan would include other agency assistance if things went bad and where are the local medical facilities along with means of transportation.I still have my protractor as well as some new ones for 1:24000 scale maps, my plastic stencils for drawing symbols on a map, two different types more useful for a staff officer in a command post track or van than a tank company commander, and a nifty wheel, scaled at 1:50000 with US and Soviet Weapons, showing maximum ranges for various type rounds, and hi, medium, and low probabilities of hit for moving and stationary engagements. It also included a small 1km x 1km template with dots showing the deployment of a Soviet motorized rifle regiments deployment in the final stages of the attack so one could estimate avenues of approach that would support it, and so you could design your kill zones. I would have to attempt to find what I had. It was approximately 3" square. It was a grid in kilometres. I don't have a reasoning or information to decide whether Custer formed four battalions and commanded two of them (as a regiment (-) or formed three and commanded one of them as a large 5 company battalion. On the way from Fort Lincoln until he departed for his southern move down the Rosebud, he operated with two 'wings' commanded by Reno and Benteen and four 3 company battalions. I agree the every day march formation had Reno and Benteen in command of two wings. It may have been different if all majors were available. The formation of battalions when moving to contact is presented by many officers that survived. Benteen's battalion (H,K,D) was the first sent away from the main body. Reno was sent as the advanced guard (G,A,M) with his three company battalion and the scouts. Custer assigned one company as rear guard. That left him with five companies in the main body. Yates had three companies but one was assigned to rear guard(B) leaving him with two companies (E,F). Keogh was assigned three companies (C,I,L)My hypothesis about task organization is he started out commanding a five company battalion and it may have lasted until they turned back from Ford D or deployed in their final positions. At some point, it separated into two 'wings' and from their final positions on the battlefield it was E-F and C-I-L. From his position on LSH, Custer would not have been able to control the movements of C-I-L very well so it essentially task organized itself. I agree that Custer had the main body (8 companies), pack train, and the rear guard as he moved down Reno Creek from the divide. Reno was sent in advance taking his battalion. Curley sees the command split after entering MTC. That would be E, F and Custer's (HQ) moving toward Ford B and three companies C,I,L moving straight across MTC. If Custer was moving by bounds, then the only way I would think he could control it is to locate with the rear guard company and move with them and drop off as they pass through the next one. So lets say they start moving by bounds from Nye-Cartwright. Custer is up front with E (it doesn't really make any difference who it is, this is just an example. They are not under any real pressure yet, but he is being cautious. He sends messengers to the other companies to hold their positions until they know the plan. He himself goes to F. He tells L (the rear company) to move first through the others and start when the messenger gets there. Each company is told Custer will tell them when to displace when he gets to them. Once L is through I and about 100 meters away, is when I is supposed to start moving. When L gets to Custer and F Company, he tells Calhoun where to go after he passes through E. This continues (with directions getting more general as the other companies move through). Soon is it E's turn to move. When F is last in the column now, the battalion is deployed something like (from north to south) C, I, L, E, F. Each company sends a messenger to the company in front of it reporting when they are set up. Custer tells F to move move through E and to set up some place past C at the front of the column. Custer drops off and stays with E. He watches until F is through L (and L has sent a message to the F that it is set), then orders C to E to move. And so forth. Custer needs to be at the rear to control the movement of the battalion. No way this can be properly coordinated if he is out front. If they had all the majors they were supposed to have, then he would have some more flexibility and the major would control the rear guard while Custer was up front. The SGM and buglers could help him control the force. Scouts are way out front and keep in touch with the lead company so they all know where to go. I suspect Custer didn't do anything like this. He just went to the front after telling everyone to start moving at a certain time and when they see the company in front moving. He may have bounded forward with the lead company and told it when to stop and waved the next company forward and remained with him. If he was moving in some formation, say in a box with one company out front moving slowly in front of it, he would have to ride back and forth between all the companies ordering them to move. Even with a radio, I would move from platoon to platoon in my tank (or section to section in my cavalry platoon), to control the movement. It takes a lot of time and I am running around the battlefield without a wingman so I have to be careful, using the ground well in order to not get whacked. Two platoons would always overwatch one. I usually led with the Infantry platoon because his heavy weapon was a machine gun, they were smaller and could hide better. The tanks could protect them. They would bound forward one or two vehicles at a time. The infantry commanders all thought I was crazy. They like to lead with my tanks. (When I was cross attached to an infantry battalion, those bastards always took two of my platoons and gave me two mech platoons. Never gave me any TOWs either, even though I pleaded since I would go from 17 or 14 tanks to 7 or 6. Hardly "Team TANK". SLOW. SLOW. SLOW. Maybe 5 KPH forward motion. I can't imagine it without a good map. I wouldn't want the troops separated by over 500m so they could provide supporting fire as the rear guard company begins its move. With a tank, it would be 1000m (so I could shoot sabot at battle sight range of 1600 meters) and reach beyond the rear guard element. By way of contrast, as a Soviet/Russian motorized regiment assaults, they try to go about 100m every 3 minutes. Its a little terrifying to watch. But if one is good and well deployed, a single company can sometimes whack the whole thing, but you really need 4 - 6.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2021 17:17:11 GMT
Steve: The two battalion task organization is not established historical truth. It is disputed. On one hand Moylan, and another officer mention it, but it is not known if their opinion was formed before or after the fact. On the other Godfrey says there was but one battalion, and he is quite specific about it in his Century article. He also places every officer in the regiment in their assigned duties on 25 June 1876. That article appeared about fourteen years after the battle, and to my knowledge was never disputed by anyone present for duty with the regiment on that day. Could there have been a change in organization after Godfrey last observed Custer's battalion. Assuredly so, but when you also look at the Godfrey article, and apply the tactics that were doctrinal at the time, Godfrey stands up quite well.
Now if you have any proof that the E-F, C-I-L battalion set up was in play, then I certainly would like to see it. Keep in mind what I said about the elements on Cemetery Ridge being immediately surrounded if C-I-L pull out as one body, and the absolute fact that the final positions of Companies E and F were 600 meters plus apart.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2021 17:29:40 GMT
Steve: The two battalion task organization is not established historical truth. It is disputed. On one hand Moylan, and another officer mention it, but it is not known if their opinion was formed before or after the fact. On the other Godfrey says there was but one battalion, and he is quite specific about it in his Century article. He also places every officer in the regiment in their assigned duties on 25 June 1876. That article appeared about fourteen years after the battle, and to my knowledge was never disputed by anyone present for duty with the regiment on that day. Could there have been a change in organization after Godfrey last observed Custer's battalion. Assuredly so, but when you also look at the Godfrey article, and apply the tactics that were doctrinal at the time, Godfrey stands up quite well. Now if you have any proof that the E-F, C-I-L battalion set up was in play, then I certainly would like to see it. Keep in mind what I said about the elements on Cemetery Ridge being immediately surrounded if C-I-L pull out as one body, and the absolute fact that the final positions of Companies E and F were 600 meters plus apart. Godfrey was with Benteen and Benteen states he left without knowing the formation of battalions. If you accept Godfrey than we could enter Edgerly with Camp. Yates had one squadron and Keogh the other. Yates was Company F and Keogh Company. Why would squadron commanders be together? I think in regards to these assignments persons giving accounts are using wing, battalion, and squadron interchangeably. The were temporary in nature with only the company as permanent. Regards Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2021 18:20:10 GMT
Sworn Testimony at RCOI
Moylan
I know nothing personally of it myself. I afterward ascertained that Maj. Reno had a battalion, Capt. Benteen had one, Capt. Keogh had one, and Capt. Yates had one, Each of these battalions I have named consisted of three companies, except Capt. Yates which was two companies Capt. McDougall, being absent with the pack train, accounted for the other company.
Edgerly
Adjutant Cook and Gen. Custer dismount and make the division into battalions, as I supposed, with pencil and paper; and then they were announced that Major Reno would have Companies A, G and M, that Captain Benteen would have companies K, D and H., and one battalion to Capt Keogh, and one to Capt. Yates, and Captain McDougall with one company was to be the rear guard.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2021 18:27:10 GMT
There was no such thing as a squadron of cavalry in 1876. There were battalions, and companies. Squadrons and troops, were not designated as such until 1883. In 1876 there were companies that could be formed into battalions as needed, much like we for a task force for a specific purpose today. There were squadrons of cavalry that existed before and during the civil war. They consisted of two companies, commanded by the senior captain of those two companies. Battalions could also be formed before and during the civil war, and they consisted of two squadrons. That is what the three Majors in the regiment were there for, to command battalions. Battalions were only assembled if required. Most times the regiment would fight in a six squadron configuration. After the civil war the idea of squadrons was dropped in favor of a flexible battalion organizational structure. Anything that contained two or more companies, operating together was a battalion. The maximum limit on the number of companies in "a" battalion was six. This is the reason the designation of "wing" was dropped at or about the same time. When Custer was on the march toward LBH the organization, properly termed, was a regiment, consisting of two battalions, of six companies each. There is no question at all that old terms were in use despite them being officially discontinued.
Just because Benteen did not know the task organization does not mean that Godfrey did not know it - does it?
You do not KNOW if Yates or Keogh commanded anything more than Company F and I respectively - do you? Know is the operative word.
"Why would squadron commanders be together?" They would not, but you do not KNOW if there was any organization sandwiched between Custer and those five companies - do you? Again know is the operative word
You are taking it on faith that every one who commented on this matter at or near the time, and those that have written about it since, including Godfrey knows what he is talking about. I take nothing on faith. I do not even take Godfrey on faith. I think that Godfrey has the most likely picture of task organization based upon what I see, and that to me indicated that E was on Cemetery Ridge with another company, and that F was on BRE with at least one other company and probably two others. Someone was delaying while three companies withdrew. Had they all started from the same place, I could readily see E and F being together, but you and I both well know they all did not start from the same place, which in turn means that two someones were conducting two separate delays in two different places.
You still have not answered how if your theory of E and F together is correct, how they were not immediately surrounded, and how if F was on Cemetery Ridge, they got back to LSH when that place between those two features was full of Indians. It is a fair distance between the Cemetery and LSH and all of it uphill.
Moylan admits his knowledge of the matter is after the fact. Edgerly was not a company commander. To my knowledge there was no general officers call. So how does he KNOW? Now if Moylan a company commander found out about this after the fact. How did Edgerly, who was not a company commander, obtain this knowledge? I do not know these answers, and no one else does either.
Sworn testimony does not mean that which is sworn to is true. It means that to the best of the person's knowledge it is true. If you start with imperfect knowledge then what you swear to, may in fact not be true. How many eye witnesses have you ever heard about that swear under oath to something they are mistaken about, thinking all that time they are swearing to the truth? If sworn testimony is always absolute truth, why are people wrongfully convicted?
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 3, 2021 18:43:34 GMT
Custer had three captains in his battalion, Keogh was senior, then Yates and finally TWC, so if GAC decided on a split into two, then the two senior captains would each get a command. Maybe the other officers saw it that way too.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2021 18:57:15 GMT
You are correct Ian, Keogh and Yates would be the logical choices. What is not known is if Custer decided to split into two battalions.
Had he what would be wrong with pairing:
1) Yates (F) along with T Custer (C), Calhoun (L), and Keogh (I) with Smith (E)
OR
2) Yates (F) with T. Custer (C), and Keogh (I) with Smith (E) and Calhoun (L).
Actually I kind of like option one, then someone could use it to write a screenplay for a redo of "All The Brothers Were Valiant"
There is not one human being on God's Green Earth that can say that either option 1 or 2 is wrong. No one knows.
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benteen
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Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2021 19:35:44 GMT
Beth/Gentlemen,
Sorry I haven't contributed much lately, so understand that my following post is just my opinion, yes based on some facts, but an opinion just the same.
In the posts I have been reading (All good and well thought out) all have something in common, and that is movement and tactics. C covers L, I covers F etc although any or most of these opinions could be true, I dont agree.
In order to have any kind of tactic you have to have trained soldiers and Officers to order and perform them. You also need the time to understand what is happening and react to it. The 7th cavalry was not a well trained outfit, and I do not believe the Officers had any experience fighting Indians.The Army believed the toughest part of fighting Indians was catching them.
Just as important was that they didn't have time to understand their circumstance and what to do about it. I believe they were run over like a tidal wave with the entire battle lasting for at best an hour. It is what i based my theory on. I believe you know it, so I will not boor you with it again.
Be Well everyone good to talk with you again Dan
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 21:00:25 GMT
OK Gents. This is not the Task Organization Thread Debate, but parts of it are relevant. We know the task organization from Fort Lincoln until Custer left the Rosebud. Two "wings" 4 battalions. Reno (Right Wing) 1st Battalion Miles Keogh. Companies B, I, and C 2nd Battlaion George Yates Companies E, F, and L Benteen (Left WIng 3rd Battalion: Thomas Weir Companies A, D, and H 4th Battalion: Thomas French, Companies G, K, and M At the Divide: 1st Battalion Benteen Companies D, H, and K 2nd Battalion Marcus Reno, Companies A, G, and M 3rd Battalion/Regiment (-) George Custer Companies E, E, F, I, and L Note the Except for the detachment of CO B to guard the trains, Custer takes command of Reno's Wing. If he did divide the two, I would submit it would be Yates commanding E, F, and L and Keogh commanding I and C because they had worked together before. No need to break up the team, such as it was. Unfortunantly, the layout of the ground does not support that. Reno and Benteen's Battalions come from Benteen's Wing and the two battalions exchange A and K. I think Benteen asked Custer to switch a company out, I forget which one, because he thought he needed more people for his independent scout. When he divided, there was no apparent need to have two battalions under Custer. Five is manageable. I submit one they are on Custer Ridge and its environs after returning from Ford D, the battalion was de facto (as opposed to de jure) split into two battalions. One, E and F were commanded by Custer and the other C-I-L was commanded by Keogh, because in my view Custer was not able to command the battlioin over the distance between the two groups. The only evidence to support this is where the companies were located at the end of the battle and where Custer was located. Bottom line. Nobody knows. Meanshile, other than task organization, I assume everyone is okay with my assumptions? @ DAN: THe officers all had some training and understoon how to move and deploy the Regiment, battalions, and companies and the Senior NCOs probably did. I don't rule out them trying to execute something like I describe, however poorly it might be executed. I cannot fathom them just wandering around the battlefield with battalion and companies in column. It mau be they did just wander around in column, no flank security, no forward or rear security and they just walked trotted without regard to terrain or the tactical solution. Just like in the movie with John Wayne and Henry Fonda. The most tactical thing they did in that movie was parade around the fort while the band played Yellow Ribbon or The Girl I Left Behind Me. azranger That's great about the riding experience one can buy for 80 bucks. I ride Iron horses that eat grass instead of hay. I don't think given my back I could mount the horse, much less endure the jolting, and dismounting thanks to my broken neck and deformed and fused spine. No way I am getting in a Kayak or Canoe either.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 21:56:45 GMT
I forgot to include the depiction of the column on the map. Here it is.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2021 22:55:53 GMT
Dan: Just curious. When does your hour start? By that I mean at which piece of terrain. Also, in your view what is going on with Reno and Benteen concurrently?
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benteen
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Post by benteen on Oct 4, 2021 0:38:42 GMT
Dan: Just curious. When does your hour start? By that I mean at which piece of terrain. Also, in your view what is going on with Reno and Benteen concurrently? Chuck, My hour starts in the vicinity of BRE and Calhoun Hill. Reno and Benteen are at Reno Hill when gunfire is heard.Some describe it as volley fire. If you remember my theory, this is the volley fire by L company in an attempt to chase the Indians that were threatening the rear of the column ,back to the village. (Didn't work) Weir gets ants in his pants and wants to go to the sound of the guns. He is denied permission by Reno and Benteen. He waits about 20 minutes and goes anyway w/o orders. (In fact he disobeys them) Give him 5 or 10 minutes to reach what we call Weir Point and he sees Indians shooting at objects on the ground. This is what I believe is finishing off the wounded of what I believe are companies I C L. Time from first volley to complete destruction of cos I C L...1/2 hour. As always Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Oct 4, 2021 1:07:28 GMT
A little longer then I figured it to be working pencil and paper style, and never forgetting I failed freshman algebra the first time around, but not by much maybe five but no more than ten minutes.
Where we differ is in Weir seeing Company I. He may have heard noise and seen smoke from there, but as they are on the back side of the ridge, I am thinking he did not see what was happening. Different story though with Companies C and L. Plain view from Weir, and that I think is the factual part of his report, and the rest is a vivid imagination. Good imagination mind you, for what he was imagining was what was happening. Half an hour from that volley you speak of does in C, I, and L. I completely agree. Custer may have been holding a little longer, but I don't even want to go there. No data.
We disagree on the purpose of that volley. I think it was for a different purpose, but with mostly the same intention arresting the threat from the south. You and I just have L going in different directions.
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