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Post by quincannon on Oct 2, 2021 16:43:29 GMT
I do not believe your conclusions are valid Steve, at least not totally valid. Here is where tactics come in, and I will take them one at a time.
1) I believe you are correct in saying the "travel time" from BRE to the Calhoun area would take minutes. It is a fairly short distance, but that is not all Mike is trying to figure in his calculations. Were it, it would be fairly simple. It is not. Included in that time you must include the time to disengage, assemble, and mount. You, out of necessity must consider that these three companies would not move in one body, but in three, and it is the time to disengage, assemble, mount, then travel, that must, out of necessity to achieve total elapsed time, be multiplied by a factor of two or three. More on if it was two or three later in this rebuttal.
2) I am of the opinion you also got the task organization incorrect. I think it is far more likely that it was C, F, and I out on BRE. My reasoning is as follows. If you take it as a given that C and I got away from that place, someone had to be covering that withdrawal, providing delaying fires while the other two assembled and mounted. Three companies in contact just do not get up, assemble, mount, and ride away, while under fire. My impression is that it was Company F providing that cover and then later backing up BRE to the Last Stand Hill area, where they were fixed. It also must be considered what a three company at once withdrawal would do to those two companies presumably on Cemetery Ridge. Withdrawing three companies at once would immediately fill that area withdrawn from with Indians which in turn would cut off and surround those two left on CR. That surrounding would also preclude anyone getting back to LSH, as I presume you have Company F doing. Under those circumstances the last stand would move to the cemetery area.
3) We also must recall the man who discovered Tweed, said he was up the ridge from where Kellogg was found. Not conclusive by any means, but if it were not on Cemetery Ridge, you would think he would say on the next ridge over, or words to that effect, and not mean LSH where Wagner places Tweed's body. Having only been there once, Battle Ridge and Cemetery Ridge were two distinct ridges to me and I think that would be the universal opinion of anyone who has taken seventh grade geography.
4) All this leads me to conclude that the positions you have these folks in is accurate, only in two instance you attribute locations to the wrong folks. A slight change of E and L on Cemetery Ridge, and C, F, and I on Battle Ridge Extension makes all the difference in how this affair played out using the proper (now and for that time) tactics, techniques, and procedures. There are set standards for how to break contact and withdraw, while in close engagement with the enemy. I have used them. You did not.
5) It is a BIG MISTAKE to focus on travel times alone, derived from a map, or actual travel of a route or through an area, when you are not under the same exact conditions surrounding the people who you are trying to calculate the travel time of. Infantry can move all day, every day, at four kilometers per hour on a road march. They are fortunate to make one fourth of that distance in a combat situation, and usually don't. The only difference between horse cavalry and Infantry is short term high speed mobility, When they are at the walk, in Indian country the pace is the same, deliberate and cautious. The issue of mount fatigue must also be considered. Remember what 1LT Cohill said to Miss Dandridge, " If we did not get off and walk every hour we would soon be in the Infantry"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 17:40:50 GMT
I am not ready to start marking up the map with plausible routes, but here are some assumptions I am making: Horse Gaits (I look especially to Steve to confirm these rough estimates from the web. Gait | MPH | KPH | KMIH | Minutes to travel 1KM | Walk | 4 | 6.4 | 5 | 12 | Trot | 10 | 16 | 12 | 7.5 | Canter | 15 | 24 | 26 | 4.5 (est) | Gallop | 30 | 48 | 40 | 2.4 | Charge | 40 | 65 | 53 | 1.8 |
Mike
I would use the 4 (3-5) for the walk and 10 (8-12) for the trot. A canter, lope, or military gallop are the same gait I would use 15. (12-18) Where I differ is the miitary charge gait or the western gallop. I would put that at no more than 25 (18 - max). At the charge gait you are asking the horse for max speed. All horses vary and that is reason that a charge gait would be ordered only close to enemy. To much spread if that distance expands.
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. .I am using KM because that is how I think about military things. Sorry for you guys who only think in Imperial/English. Do horses know the difference?25 it is then. I will adjust that. No. But I can't think in miles in this context and my map has 1 km grids.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 18:15:17 GMT
quincannon The first calculation I entered is just for 'normal' 'road march' movement. I haven't quite figured out how to structure my thought process for tactical movement. Horses and lack of radio are so foreign to me. Control my platoon with flags was a real problem and I only did it two or three times when I was a company commander. Once in the middle of an assault using MILES (laser beams) for tactical engagment. But that was only to bring the company on line...
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Post by quincannon on Oct 2, 2021 18:29:56 GMT
If it were easy Mike, everyone could do what you are attempting. It's not, so drive on and I will watch with great interest.
What I was trying to relate to Steve with my post above, was that you cannot separate tactics, techniques, and procedures, with the more seemingly mundane travel times, and terrain negotiation. They all must be calculated in concert with one another. If your tactical assumptions are not correct, the most finite of calculations cannot be correct, and if your tactics are correct, then it is still not all that easy to calculate movement times without an insight into the total situation, both friendly and enemy. If you are forced to look at every bush and tree, which is not the case here, then you are crawling, while in open country, with no opposition, and a long range field of view you can move much more rapidly, with the assurance that you will not be easily surprised.
I don't need to tell you this, you were sheep dipped in this when you were first dropped on your head at Knox, having chosen glamour over the Queen herself, but there are others that come here without that background, and most of this is for them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 18:51:50 GMT
LOL. Got ya. I have great regard for the Queen. As well as the King. You need the whole team to make the team.
Reconnaissance is slow. Everything takes longer and costs more than you think it will.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 2, 2021 18:56:46 GMT
Well, if you had a command of just 200 or so men and saw how large your objective was, would you leave your largest company behind guarding a ridge which has no significance now you have ridden past it?
I don't go along with this "waiting for Benteen" nonsense, Martini had only been dispatched a short time before with orders to find and for him to Bring slow moving packs, so suport would not be forthcomming for quite some time and GAC was not noted for his patience, especially now the game was a foot!!!!
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Post by quincannon on Oct 2, 2021 19:26:10 GMT
Thank you Doctor Watson. The game was indeed afoot, and when you hit you hit with your fist you are ill advised to keep the thumb out of the process. Leaving L behind is a bit of nonsense from the tactical perspective, as you note Ian, but the fact remains they were found where they were found, so logic tells you that if you are adverse to dealing in nonsense (and I am, so is Mike for that matter) there must be another answer. That other answer by necessity throws the conventional theory in the dumper. No one in his right mind is going to launch an attack leaving twenty percent, forty percent, or sixty percent of his combat power sitting on their butts.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 2, 2021 19:42:50 GMT
That is the question Chuck, they where found on that feature as where C on FFR, and this will always be the elephant in the room.
I am all for five go forth, but I still can't warm to falling back by bounds one company at a time. If this was the case, they left a long time between company bounds, and I know we have done this discussion before, but I still don't sit well with it, I would rather go down the route of L and C moving as a unit, L forms skirmish and C stays mounted, this would be phase one of the withdrawal of the whole battalion, phase two was I and F, E is last to go, Keogh's company I ran straight into the failure of the the first two, to hold their ground, E and F got fixed, they both got shoved off their positions and lost their horses.
You may think that I have gone off my rocker, but that to me sounds more plausable then Custer leaving three companies sat on their arses guarding a ridge line which became their grave yard.
Leaving mounted troopers to guard a position for this length of time is not what I would expect off any cavalry commander, this was a fast moving battle and keeping moving is the name of the game, so you only stop when you have to.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 2, 2021 20:13:07 GMT
I am not opposed to Companies C and L leaving at around the same time. I don't think they were together though. I am of the opinion they came from two different places, one from Cemetery Ridge (L) and the other from BRE (C). I do not believe they moved by bounds. I think both were moving flat out to the rear, having E and F cover them respectively. Now it may have been the intention to have L and C establish a bounding position further to the south. Nye-Cartwright seems likely in that regard, but I just do not know. On the other hand it may have been that C and L were racing for the tall timber in hopes of finding Reno and Benteen. We just do not have enough information to draw anything conclusive as to what the intention was.
Little Miss Muffet sitting on her tuffet eating her curds and way, is more plausible then three companies sitting idle when there is fighting to be done.
Having it be a mobile battle, and it was, is something they do not understand Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 21:47:59 GMT
Well, I would like to think I would move in bounds of no more than 500 meters and have two companies up and three back. Why 500 meters. That would be the absolute limit of how far the overwatch element can let the leaders go and provide them covering fire. Since they were not good shots and the terrain is bad, maybe it would have been only 250-300 meters. Successive bounds. The first two move forward and set up. I can see them. Then the other three move forward simultaneously. Then depending on how thing are, they either stop or move through. Some people dismount some people stay mounted to get better long range vision.
Today the overwatch element would back up and find some low ground to move toward the forward element. SOMETIMES, you can just drive forward, not recommended though because you become a shoot me sign as you crest the ridge. That would likely not be so risky in this set up. Perhaps 15 minutes for the bound because nothing prohibits them from internal bounding. But again, given the state of training, I'd half think they'd just move from line to column of fours, walk forward and when they get to the next position, they'd go back into line. Perhaps its because I watched the John Wayne trilogy too often and the commander is in the front so he can get starched first and everone seems to gallop forward. Easy to do on a movie lot, in your imagination, and in training before MILES (laser engagement system). Nothing like seeing our light go off and you have no idea where it came from.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 22:20:12 GMT
Thank you Doctor Watson. The game was indeed afoot, and when you hit you hit with your fist you are ill advised to keep the thumb out of the process. Leaving L behind is a bit of nonsense from the tactical perspective, as you note Ian, but the fact remains they were found where they were found, so logic tells you that if you are adverse to dealing in nonsense (and I am, so is Mike for that matter) there must be another answer. That other answer by necessity throws the conventional theory in the dumper. No one in his right mind is going to launch an attack leaving twenty percent, forty percent, or sixty percent of his combat power sitting on their butts. My last command when task organized with 2 tank and 1 infantry platoon was 10 tanks, 4 M113 APCs with an infantry platoon, not larger than 25 when it should have been 40+, and an FO track, not counting the 1SG, with the supply truck, two jeeps, the maintenance team (1 tank recovery vehicle, 1 APC, 1 truck), and the medic track. The total combat crews was 40 tankers, 3 - 5 artillerymen, and 25 or so infantry for a grand total of 63-65 people. I habitually moved infantry platoon - Me - tank platoon - XO - tank platoon. The infantry platoon would move be bounds. the 1st bound from a given position was 1 track sometimes it was 1 fire team (3-5 guys), and it might just be a buddy team. The rest of the company overwatched that first little group get to where it was going. Then I'd sent the rest of the squad, then the infantry platoon, and then the tanks would move. Sometimes of course the tanks led. If we were on a single axis, the rest of the battalion might be deployed watching that first little group of infantry or a single tank move forward. (A pure tank company was 63 people). The succession of command was CO, XO, FO, SR PLT LDR, Next PLT LDR, JR PLT LDR, 1SG, PLT SGTs by seniority, then TCs by seniority. The FO was third because of his radios. The 1st actually had to take command twice in the 48 months we were together. I worked a lot with the FO, he was normally a 2nd LT. He usually got "killed" before me, so it was not an issue. I also put tank commanders in my jeep in front of the company on road marches so they would get used to 'stuff' happening (learned that from my 1st company commander.) Make contact with the smallest element possible. Smother them with fire. Once you have them, don't let go. No one in the 7th would have thought like that, I think. And they probably couldn't of executed it. The might of course send a single four out to see what is about, but I still have this vision (wrong I am pretty sure) of the company commander in front of the column, ready to dash forward. Unfortunately the Civil War tactics manual by Cooke (? not the 7th's adjutant, but Phillip St. George), nor Upton's infantry tactics, nor the excerpts I have found of his Cavalry Tactics talk about such things. The point is it is slow. I think they probably would have done about 3 KPH/1.8 KMIH during this move, possibly slower if they were careful.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2021 3:03:43 GMT
25 it is then. I will adjust that. No. But I can't think in miles in this context and my map has 1 km grids. Its been 50 years since I used clicks or kilometres. We had those little plastic grids to use on our maps. I think I still have mine. Vietnam 1969-70. Regards Steve
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Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2021 4:24:47 GMT
That little plastic card is called a protractor, and it is the best investment of two cents the U S Government ever made. Well they are eleven bucks on Amazon. Go figure.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2021 5:02:00 GMT
I do not believe your conclusions are valid Steve, at least not totally valid. Here is where tactics come in, and I will take them one at a time. 1) I believe you are correct in saying the "travel time" from BRE to the Calhoun area would take minutes. It is a fairly short distance, but that is not all Mike is trying to figure in his calculations. Were it, it would be fairly simple. It is not. Included in that time you must include the time to disengage, assemble, and mount. You, out of necessity must consider that these three companies would not move in one body, but in three, and it is the time to disengage, assemble, mount, then travel, that must, out of necessity to achieve total elapsed time, be multiplied by a factor of two or three. More on if it was two or three later in this rebuttal. Chuck I was only asked to comment on a chart that had rates of travel for different gaits. For many years I have explained the difference between rate of travel and overall rate of travel. Even before you posted I gave the cavalry manual overall rate of travel of 3.3 mph. That would take into account everything you listed as a consideration.
I applaud Mike for looking at something I would never attempt. We do not have starting and ending points. We do not have moving times and stopped times. All of these things are recorded on my GPS and I have hundreds of miles recorded horseback. So if I stop and pee I have to slowdown, dismount, mount and increase speed to whatever gait I choose. All of those things affect and individuals overall rate of travel. Peeing would not slow a march though in it overall rate of travel. An individual soldier would have to increase speed to get back to his place in the formation.
So I think we agree that any activity that slows or stops movement decreases overall rate of travel. Increasing speed for even short distances increases overall rate of travel.
2) I am of the opinion you also got the task organization incorrect. I think it is far more likely that it was C, F, and I out on BRE. My reasoning is as follows. If you take it as a given that C and I got away from that place, someone had to be covering that withdrawal, providing delaying fires while the other two assembled and mounted. Three companies in contact just do not get up, assemble, mount, and ride away, while under fire. My impression is that it was Company F providing that cover and then later backing up BRE to the Last Stand Hill area, where they were fixed. It also must be considered what a three company at once withdrawal would do to those two companies presumably on Cemetery Ridge. Withdrawing three companies at once would immediately fill that area withdrawn from with Indians which in turn would cut off and surround those two left on CR. That surrounding would also preclude anyone getting back to LSH, as I presume you have Company F doing. Under those circumstances the last stand would move to the cemetery area. The historical truth is the command was divided into battalions just below the divide. E and F were in one battalion and CIL in another. Curley states the gray horses (E) went down MTC. Martin states Custer went down MTC and sent him back close to MTF. Custer was known to be using a detail from F in advance.
CIL would cross MTC and egress to Luce as Curley described. He didn't list the companies but he did described them moving straight across MTC.
I think E and F went across CR and returned that way. Donahue has E and F going out BRE and returning CR.
The majority of battle scholars have CIL remaining at the Calhoun Area. We agree that it doesn't make sense. So when would Custer have changed the battalions he formed? My observations are that E and F moved across the western corridor where the current markers are located. The route is shown on the Maguire map. Indian drawings show them moving across that western corridor.
I think we have room for all these opinions and theories until one is proven truth.
3) We also must recall the man who discovered Tweed, said he was up the ridge from where Kellogg was found. Not conclusive by any means, but if it were not on Cemetery Ridge, you would think he would say on the next ridge over, or words to that effect, and not mean LSH where Wagner places Tweed's body. Having only been there once, Battle Ridge and Cemetery Ridge were two distinct ridges to me and I think that would be the universal opinion of anyone who has taken seventh grade geography. I understand Battle Ridge Extension and its forks. It is narrow with drainages on both sides. I am not as sure of Cemetery Ridge. It certainly has a drainage between it and BRE but the western side runs sloping to the river. Tom and I were at Donahue's and Adelson's living quarters and could look toward the river. BRE is long and narrow but CR is wide and has the Museum, parking lot, restrooms, old stone house and even further west the administrative buildings including the housing. So does Cemetery Ridge include the cemetery which is wide. One would think so by the name. 4) All this leads me to conclude that the positions you have these folks in is accurate, only in two instance you attribute locations to the wrong folks. A slight change of E and L on Cemetery Ridge, and C, F, and I on Battle Ridge Extension makes all the difference in how this affair played out using the proper (now and for that time) tactics, techniques, and procedures. There are set standards for how to break contact and withdraw, while in close engagement with the enemy. I have used them. You did not. How would you know? Is it because Marines in Vietnam would not break contact with the enemy?5) It is a BIG MISTAKE to focus on travel times alone, derived from a map, or actual travel of a route or through an area, when you are not under the same exact conditions surrounding the people who you are trying to calculate the travel time of. Infantry can move all day, every day, at four kilometers per hour on a road march. They are fortunate to make one fourth of that distance in a combat situation, and usually don't. The only difference between horse cavalry and Infantry is short term high speed mobility, When they are at the walk, in Indian country the pace is the same, deliberate and cautious. The issue of mount fatigue must also be considered. Remember what 1LT Cohill said to Miss Dandridge, " If we did not get off and walk every hour we would soon be in the Infantry" I think are discussing something that I never said. I clearly have for many years explained rates of travel and overall travel rates ad infinitum. There are over 50 pages in the Benteen Dawdling thread from many years ago. If you are trying to educate newcomers I would agree with your point. You are clearing stating what I stated for many years. It is the reason I find it near impossible to reconstruct the slow and stopped times. I have recorded them in my hundreds of miles of collecting horse patrol data.
Regards
Steve
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 9:46:50 GMT
Steve, you gave me the information I asked for. I guess you were a rifleman in RVN? How fast did you move on patrol? How fast did you move when you were attacking or moving between positions. I know it was a long time ago. whatever than speed was, it probably wasn't 2.5 miles per hour. I don't know if horse mounted troops would move faster. They have the advantage of seeing further than you do, particularly if you contrast the LBH with the Vietnamese jungle.
A USMC COL and I were discussing a problem in RVN. I was horrified when he told me that for a company to move from where it was to join up with another company would take, at best 1.5 hours because I was used to figuring 5 to 15KPH to move between positions. Could go much faster if you were overwatching and order to move up next to a company in front because the route should already (ha ha) be cleared. I also must reiterate, I only commanded in simulated combat (albeit with laser engagements at the end) so my experience is probably mostly wrong.
I still have my protractor as well as some new ones for 1:24000 scale maps, my plastic stencils for drawing symbols on a map, two different types more useful for a staff officer in a command post track or van than a tank company commander, and a nifty wheel, scaled at 1:50000 with US and Soviet Weapons, showing maximum ranges for various type rounds, and hi, medium, and low probabilities of hit for moving and stationary engagements. It also included a small 1km x 1km template with dots showing the deployment of a Soviet motorized rifle regiments deployment in the final stages of the attack so one could estimate avenues of approach that would support it, and so you could design your kill zones.
I don't have a reasoning or information to decide whether Custer formed four battalions and commanded two of them (as a regiment (-) or formed three and commanded one of them as a large 5 company battalion. On the way from Fort Lincoln until he departed for his southern move down the Rosebud, he operated with two 'wings' commanded by Reno and Benteen and four 3 company battalions.
My hypothesis about task organization is he started out commanding a five company battalion and it may have lasted until they turned back from Ford D or deployed in their final positions. At some point, it separated into two 'wings' and from their final positions on the battlefield it was E-F and C-I-L. From his position on LSH, Custer would not have been able to control the movements of C-I-L very well so it essentially task organized itself.
If Custer was moving by bounds, then the only way I would think he could control it is to locate with the rear guard company and move with them and drop off as they pass through the next one.
So lets say they start moving by bounds from Nye-Cartwright. Custer is up front with E (it doesn't really make any difference who it is, this is just an example. They are not under any real pressure yet, but he is being cautious. He sends messengers to the other companies to hold their positions until they know the plan.
He himself goes to F. He tells L (the rear company) to move first through the others and start when the messenger gets there. Each company is told Custer will tell them when to displace when he gets to them. Once L is through I and about 100 meters away, is when I is supposed to start moving.
When L gets to Custer and F Company, he tells Calhoun where to go after he passes through E. This continues (with directions getting more general as the other companies move through). Soon is it E's turn to move.
When F is last in the column now, the battalion is deployed something like (from north to south) C, I, L, E, F.
Each company sends a messenger to the company in front of it reporting when they are set up.
Custer tells F to move move through E and to set up some place past C at the front of the column.
Custer drops off and stays with E. He watches until F is through L (and L has sent a message to the F that it is set), then orders C to E to move. And so forth.
Custer needs to be at the rear to control the movement of the battalion. No way this can be properly coordinated if he is out front. If they had all the majors they were supposed to have, then he would have some more flexibility and the major would control the rear guard while Custer was up front. The SGM and buglers could help him control the force.
Scouts are way out front and keep in touch with the lead company so they all know where to go.
I suspect Custer didn't do anything like this. He just went to the front after telling everyone to start moving at a certain time and when they see the company in front moving. He may have bounded forward with the lead company and told it when to stop and waved the next company forward and remained with him.
If he was moving in some formation, say in a box with one company out front moving slowly in front of it, he would have to ride back and forth between all the companies ordering them to move.
Even with a radio, I would move from platoon to platoon in my tank (or section to section in my cavalry platoon), to control the movement. It takes a lot of time and I am running around the battlefield without a wingman so I have to be careful, using the ground well in order to not get whacked. Two platoons would always overwatch one. I usually led with the Infantry platoon because his heavy weapon was a machine gun, they were smaller and could hide better. The tanks could protect them. They would bound forward one or two vehicles at a time. The infantry commanders all thought I was crazy. They like to lead with my tanks. (When I was cross attached to an infantry battalion, those bastards always took two of my platoons and gave me two mech platoons. Never gave me any TOWs either, even though I pleaded since I would go from 17 or 14 tanks to 7 or 6. Hardly "Team TANK".
SLOW. SLOW. SLOW. Maybe 5 KPH forward motion. I can't imagine it without a good map. I wouldn't want the troops separated by over 500m so they could provide supporting fire as the rear guard company begins its move. With a tank, it would be 1000m (so I could shoot sabot at battle sight range of 1600 meters) and reach beyond the rear guard element.
By way of contrast, as a Soviet/Russian motorized regiment assaults, they try to go about 100m every 3 minutes. Its a little terrifying to watch. But if one is good and well deployed, a single company can sometimes whack the whole thing, but you really need 4 - 6.
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