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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2021 17:37:39 GMT
Hoyt was only partially correct in my estimation Steve.
The center of gravity in this instance was duel in nature, both the horses and the village infrastructure itself. Without the majority of horses, but with the infrastructure, the villages would survive, and it would be hard, but doable. Without both the horses and the infrastructure they were doomed.
You go ahead and enjoy what you can get out of LBHA get togethers Steve. For me they are right up there somewhere between the death from a thousand cuts, and burning at the stake. There guest of honor could be Moses reciting the Ten Commandments, and I would still avoid them as if they were a Leper Colony. It's more like a Justin Bieber adoration society attended by pimple popping tweeners, than people interested in what transpired on 25 June 1876.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 11, 2021 17:40:51 GMT
Suppose Custer intended Reno to open the battle and hit the flank and rear with the main body. What would that look like?
I still believe that Curley got it right when he states what he saw. They split with some going straight across (CIL), and the gray horses turned toward MTF. Custer would have been with them since he was there when he sent Martin back.
I have gone to Pvt Thompson's view from the river with Gerry. He published a paper that included the viewscape. I originally saw that viewscape as past from Clair Conzelman. I have ridden from within 600 yards of MTF using the east side of Weir as the objective. Martin's description is consistent with riding it. I rode with my Marine Crow friend straight across from Middle Coulee, and he made a turn to the east different from the many times I had ridden to the same egress. We went east and then up drainage and were at Luce and then continued north along Nye Cartwright ridge. That ride is consistent with the artifacts found on Luce and NC.
A few years back, Chris Dixon presented information about a returning Cheyenne hunting party coming down the north fork of MTC. Independently Henry Wiebert discussed the artifacts indicating firing in the drainage leading to Luce. He stated the even mounted soldiers would not be visible to known Indian sites to the west until they reached Luce. He stated that they had to be firing toward the north fork of MTC. Dixon provided who those Indians were.
So we have several eyewitnesses putting the gray horses, Custer's HQ, and Martin near MTF. They would have to have turned west toward MTF, as Culy observed. So maybe the answer to the first question gives us insight into what Curly observed.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 11, 2021 17:51:23 GMT
Hoyt was only partially correct in my estimation Steve. The center of gravity in this instance was duel in nature, both the horses and the village infrastructure itself. Without the majority of horses, but with the infrastructure, the villages would survive, and it would be hard, but doable. Without both the horses and the infrastructure they were doomed. You go ahead and enjoy what you can get out of LBHA get togethers Steve. For me they are right up there somewhere between the death from a thousand cuts, and burning at the stake. There guest of honor could be Moses reciting the Ten Commandments, and I would still avoid them as if they were a Leper Colony. It's more like a Justin Bieber adoration society attended by pimple popping tweeners, than people interested in what transpired on 25 June 1876. Chuck
I always do. The Gettysburg meeting was quite an event for me. My friend Will Hutchison lives there and I got a great tour. Chis Dixon presented a paper on CH and Tom asked a question that Chris could not answer only because he was sworn to secrecy. This year I hope Tom makes it and we get to do some prairie dog shooting. We will also go to Miles City. This year my friend in Harding asked me to help participate and do some dutch oven cooking.
I intend to hang out with JW Realbird also. The meeting defines the time and location but the fun and learning is on your own. I don't do the dress but I do dress as a Ranger from Arizona. Tom is quite the entertainer and a lot of fun.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2021 18:36:59 GMT
Steve: I am happy you see some value, but it seems by your comments above that the value obtained could be just as easily had, without the convention.
Back to Hoyt. The only thing that one needs to understand what happened at LBH is to recall what Heinz Guderian, commander of the 2nd Panzer Division in the mid 1930's, said when asked what his views on panzer tactics were - - - Gentlemen, he said, you do not hit with your fingers, you hit with your fist. Custer tried to hit with his fingers, and it did not work for him any better than it did for anyone else throughout the continuum of military history
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 11, 2021 19:16:50 GMT
I have never really taken Curly or Thompson seriously maybe I should, but Curly was branded a liar by the Crows and has been caught out for exaggerating his story over time. But what you say Steve does butter my toast, as the route he described is the same route they found the casing, now that gets me interested.
Thompson, Hmmm…I don’t know, he ruins his account with daft tales of meeting Custer etc, but maybe he did see the firing lines on FFR and Calhoun.
What happened to Watson’s story, he knocked around with Thompson for a while, did he write an account?
As for Martini, he would have seen quite a bit if he left the command only five football pitches from the river, but really, he tells us nothing in his accounts. He sounds like Manuel in Faulty Towers, “I know nothing” as if his superiors put him under pressure to say only the basics.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 11, 2021 19:20:57 GMT
That may have been a bit difficult HR since the first operational launch of the V-1 was not until 13 June 1944, but I do get you point. I believe Blatchley park arranged to borrow one of the test units on he QT and something went wrong after it arrived and was being inspected by the top brass. Still, you got my point. We knew more about them than the Germans.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2021 20:31:05 GMT
No HR, I have told you a thousand times and you still won't listen. It was Buck Rogers, on a time transit back from the 25th Century that pulled off that caper, but it was not Eisenhower that attended, rather Bernie Montgomery, and the only thing wrong from most American's (I am sitting squarely on the fence here) point of view is that the damned thing failed to explode.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 12, 2021 9:17:32 GMT
If Custer does not know that the south end of the valley is vacant, then he must assume that it is still occupied and attracting the attention of the warriors. This could make him think that the ground he had covered to get to Ford D would be relatively clear of warriors. He may figure that most were in the valley to the south and the rest were in front of him at Ford D. He may think that when he unites on the high ground the warriors will pull back (they did) and he can then quickly move South again. This may be why the movement looks odd. Company L has been sent off before they even solidify on the high ground.
Company E is comfortably holding Cemetery Ridge and Company C and then I are sent on their way but a sudden push by the warriors along BRE forces the loss of Company F horses and the whole situation changes dramatically. How often do battles change momentum based one one critical point? Here we have 4. Custer does not realize that the ground to his North is being filled by warriors. Lame White Man has moved to Greasy Grass. Crazy Horse has flanked C,I,L Company F has lost their mounts.
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 12, 2021 11:50:58 GMT
Hoyt was only partially correct in my estimation Steve. The center of gravity in this instance was duel in nature, both the horses and the village infrastructure itself. Without the majority of horses, but with the infrastructure, the villages would survive, and it would be hard, but doable. Without both the horses and the infrastructure they were doomed. You go ahead and enjoy what you can get out of LBHA get togethers Steve. For me they are right up there somewhere between the death from a thousand cuts, and burning at the stake. There guest of honor could be Moses reciting the Ten Commandments, and I would still avoid them as if they were a Leper Colony. It's more like a Justin Bieber adoration society attended by pimple popping tweeners, than people interested in what transpired on 25 June 1876. Chuck
I always do. The Gettysburg meeting was quite an event for me. My friend Will Hutchison lives there and I got a great tour. Chis Dixon presented a paper on CH and Tom asked a question that Chris could not answer only because he was sworn to secrecy. This year I hope Tom makes it and we get to do some prairie dog shooting. We will also go to Miles City. This year my friend in Harding asked me to help participate and do some dutch oven cooking.
I intend to hang out with JW Realbird also. The meeting defines the time and location but the fun and learning is on your own. I don't do the dress but I do dress as a Ranger from Arizona. Tom is quite the entertainer and a lot of fun.
Regards
Steve Interesting, but I believe that the Village can't move without the horse herd - so if you have no horses then you basically cannot move to survive as hunter/gatherers -- and you are forced to return to the Reservation which was the goal of the Army campaign. Not moving = starvation. I don't dispute that there can be more than one Center of Gravity, but the average lodge needed about 6 horses to move it. The proof of this is the Powder River, in that even after the lodges were destroyed, the recapture of the horse herd allowed the Tsisistas to move on, get to a Lakota village, where they were given enough support to recreate their village and fight at the LBH. The second proof would be the 1874 Red River War - the end of the campaign was brought about by the destruction of the horse herd. The point being that the horse was. what everything depended upon. Without the horses the Lakota/Tsisistas were no match for a military force that had command and control. I think Sheridan said it best in the 1876 Annual Report when referring to the Lakota horse herds "when these are killed, captured, or surrendered, the Sioux War will be at an end, and I think all future trouble with them, as it is intended to put most of them on foot, and a Sioux on foot is a Sioux warrior no longer". Always happy to have someone read my thesis though, even if they disagree.... M Hoyt (but if the Center of Gravity is what all depends on -- it was the horse ...smile...)
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 12, 2021 13:01:58 GMT
Agreed. He should have gone after the horses but...he didn't. Hope you stick around. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 12, 2021 13:51:54 GMT
Mac, the horse herd was a target, but for Custer's Indian contingent. Reno had a large number of horse herders on his left flank, but they never fulfilled their task.
Hello and welcome MHoyt, nice to meet you.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 12, 2021 14:21:43 GMT
Hard for Reno with the force available Ian and another reason for Custer to follow into the valley. Everything starts to fall apart with that decision. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 12, 2021 14:46:20 GMT
I think Reno just left them to it. His mission was the village.
Maybe these horse herd people were under the command of Varnum or Hare, I really don't know, but they are regarded as horse herders and the Indian pony's was collateral.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 12, 2021 15:38:59 GMT
Welcome aboard Hoyt. i too hope you will stay and be a frequent contributor. Good, rational, well backed up opinions are always valued here.
Recalling now that we attended the same school, my center of gravity opinion was based primarily on the horse herd and infrastructure status as it pertains to who won the battle. Had the Indians won, as they did, and during the course of the battle the horse herd had been run off, with only the few horses that remained under control being the war ponies, habitually not with the horse herd , but rather tethered near the lodges, those ponies that were run off could have been rounded up. Again not an easy task, but not unknown. Had the ponies been run off and the infrastructure (stored meat, utensils, lodges, and supplies) been destroyed during the course of battle, none of that could have been reconstituted in a timely manner to be available when required in the coming winter months, which in June is right around the corner in Montana. Under that circumstance it would not matter what the outcome of the battle was.
DO NOT take my comments as meaning that I would not have aimed at the horse herd. When you read through these pages you will find that not only would that be the first thing I would have done, but, I believe, the first thing Custer should have done. I will go a bit further though. Had he done it, and done it right, by a combination of driving the horses, and the use of a couple of set, well placed, prairie fires, he could have both put paid to the horses and scuppered the infrastructure.
I think Sheridan knew well the value of infrastructure of all types, from livestock, to shelter, to crops, and food. He received his doctorate in the Valley of Virginia in 1864.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Apr 12, 2021 15:56:40 GMT
Chuck
I always do. The Gettysburg meeting was quite an event for me. My friend Will Hutchison lives there and I got a great tour. Chis Dixon presented a paper on CH and Tom asked a question that Chris could not answer only because he was sworn to secrecy. This year I hope Tom makes it and we get to do some prairie dog shooting. We will also go to Miles City. This year my friend in Harding asked me to help participate and do some dutch oven cooking.
I intend to hang out with JW Realbird also. The meeting defines the time and location but the fun and learning is on your own. I don't do the dress but I do dress as a Ranger from Arizona. Tom is quite the entertainer and a lot of fun.
Regards
Steve Interesting, but I believe that the Village can't move without the horse herd - so if you have no horses then you basically cannot move to survive as hunter/gatherers -- and you are forced to return to the Reservation which was the goal of the Army campaign. Not moving = starvation. I don't dispute that there can be more than one Center of Gravity, but the average lodge needed about 6 horses to move it. The proof of this is the Powder River, in that even after the lodges were destroyed, the recapture of the horse herd allowed the Tsisistas to move on, get to a Lakota village, where they were given enough support to recreate their village and fight at the LBH. The second proof would be the 1874 Red River War - the end of the campaign was brought about by the destruction of the horse herd. The point being that the horse was. what everything depended upon. Without the horses the Lakota/Tsisistas were no match for a military force that had command and control. I think Sheridan said it best in the 1876 Annual Report when referring to the Lakota horse herds "when these are killed, captured, or surrendered, the Sioux War will be at an end, and I think all future trouble with them, as it is intended to put most of them on foot, and a Sioux on foot is a Sioux warrior no longer". Always happy to have someone read my thesis though, even if they disagree.... M Hoyt (but if the Center of Gravity is what all depends on -- it was the horse ...smile...)Welcome aboard, Sir I agree, but for me, it is easy since I always have believed this. Your thesis paper just presented it more succinctly and gave it a name that military persons could relate to. That being the term Center of Gravity (COG). Custer himself destroyed the COG at the Washita by shooting the horses. I don't dispute Chuck's destruction of the infrastructure. I believe it would occur after the horses were addressed. My opinion is also that if Custer had followed Reno into the valley, all twelve companies could work in support of each other rather than a piecemeal feeding of no more than three companies at a time. Again welcome aboard, Sir, and I look forward to your participation. Regards Steve
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