The Sweet Report explaining battlefield deaths.

[herosrest]

Captain Sweet’s Battle Report, May 15, 1890

The item is a copy of Owen J. Sweets report on the Custer Battlefield, after completing his mission to place 249 headstones, designed to mark the places on the battlefield where the officers and enlisted men fell, and carry out other such verbal instructions as he may receive from the Commanding Officer.

The command was rationed for 10 days and QM's dept. provided transportation.

By order of Colonel Brisbin.

Issued by R.P. Paige Wainwright 1st Lieut. and Adj't., 1st Cavalry Post Adjutant on April 29th, 1890. Sweet's Orders


Sweet issued a 'Battle' report which is what is seen on the ground. All theory based upon the positions of markers, on Custer's battleground, should conform to that outlined by the good sweet Captain. He fully explained what is shown. It is surprising that Charles Kuhlman arrived at an interpretation so removed from the reality of what he studied for.... 25 years.

[azranger]

HR

He permanently  messed it up with his spurious markers. Someone before him may have messed up the deep gully if they put the stakes where Sweet put those markers. If so, we have 28 markers where they didn't fall and close to 40 placed that didn't belong on the Custer Battlefield.

That alone is at least a 30% error. I would not call bodies in a gully a skirmish line.

Regards

BE

[quincannon]

Just curious as to why you would not call bodies in a gully a skirmish line. Certainly you can skirmish in a gully, can you not? So if you are saying the bodies found in the gully are not arrayed in anything that may be considered a skirmish line by their found position, say that.

Maybe Sweet did not mess up by placing markers where there was no justification for placing them, but the soldiers he was supervising certainly did, and he was responsible so that point of your's stands.

Just as a point of order here for I do not know the answer. There were 249 markers, and I believe 210 known casualties in the Custer area, so were not the remainder intended for the Reno portion of the battlefield? If they were then do we know if any of these bodies were buried where they fell or buried in a mass or gathered in one place site. A few of these markers intended for Reno's men are in the valley I think, but I have never personally seen them, and I do not recall seeing any markers in the Reno hill area, although I did not walk that area due to time constraints.

[azranger]

Apr 4, 2021 19:06:13 GMT quincannon said:

Just curious as to why you would not call bodies in a gully a skirmish line. Certainly you can skirmish in a gully, can you not? So if you are saying the bodies found in the gully are not arrayed in anything that may be considered a skirmish line by their found position, say that.

The markers are not in the gully and no I would not call it a skirmish line. The key word is line. 

Maybe Sweet did not mess up by placing markers where there was no justification for placing them, but the soldiers he was supervising certainly did, and he was responsible so that point of your's stands.

Sweet admits he placed two markers in some locations where there was one wooden marker.

Just as a point of order here for I do not know the answer. There were 249 markers, and I believe 210 known casualties in the Custer area, so were not the remainder intended for the Reno portion of the battlefield? If they were then do we know if any of these bodies were buried where they fell or buried in a mass or gathered in one place site. A few of these markers intended for Reno's men are in the valley I think, but I have never personally seen them, and I do not recall seeing any markers in the Reno hill area, although I did not walk that area due to time constraints.

You are correct. I have seen the markers in the valley. One was added in the 90s. I believe the Corporal Foley one was also added long after Sweet placed his markers. I rode up to the Hodgson marker at the Reno Crossing  and it has been shot at numerous times. 

[quincannon]

OK, that's a good answer.

The 1890's or the 1990's.

Did Sweet say why he did it? He must have had some reason to do so. I don't think he would just dump markers, but the high probability of one of two things happening, namely bones found in the same area where only one of the original states was located is one, while the other is the possibility of two, or even more soldiers being originally buried in the same hole in the ground is another. Sweet was responsible, no matter what he did or why he did it, but I am not at all prepared to have him kick the can, for what could have been common errors. I sure would not like to have been the one responsible for sorting that mess out for posterity.

[azranger]

I believe that Chip Watts had something to do with the Corporal Foley marker and the Sgt Butler is not in the original location. 

Here is an unknown in the valley. It is near the Birding Ground property where Reno's Crossing is located. 

[azranger]

Apr 4, 2021 23:55:21 GMT quincannon said:

OK, that's a good answer.

The 1890's or the 1990's.

Did Sweet say why he did it? He must have had some reason to do so. I don't think he would just dump markers, but the high probability of one of two things happening, namely bones found in the same area where only one of the original states was located is one, while the other is the possibility of two, or even more soldiers being originally buried in the same hole in the ground is another. Sweet was responsible, no matter what he did or why he did it, but I am not at all prepared to have him kick the can, for what could have been common errors. I sure would not like to have been the one responsible for sorting that mess out for posterity.

From the Stricken Field

Significantly, Sweet noted that "several headstones were set near the graves previously marked where indications  that more than one body rested. This was resorted to only at the end of the work, when guided by many days by many days experience, and a judgement well matured thereby."

Did he think only two soldiers died in the valley? I think they knew there were extra markers and placed them on the Custer battlefield. Conveniently that had just enough markers to place with the matured judgement.

Here is another of Sweet's statements:

the positioning of the McIntosh and DeWolf  markers "may be slightly in error,... but they are correct for memorial purposes."

Sweet placed 52 markers on LSH where only 42 bodies were found.

Regards

Steve

[herosrest]

Cap. Sweet's orders came from one James Sank Brisbin, Colonel 8th Cavalry, Ft. Meade and left little leeway in regards placements of the markers within the square mile or so of enlcosed land around the monument. That's my take on it.  I suspect that Sweet feared a 'martinet' and wrestled with the problem to provide a satisfactory outcome. He went on to an interesting career and times in the Philipines.

Brisbin's Orders. 

Capt. Sweet's Repor - 

Anecdote - Terry's July 2nd Report to Sheridan, carried by A.E. Smith to Bismarck and transmitted 6th July 1876 link

[azranger]

Apr 4, 2021 19:06:13 GMT quincannon said:

Just curious as to why you would not call bodies in a gully a skirmish line. Certainly you can skirmish in a gully, can you not? So if you are saying the bodies found in the gully are not arrayed in anything that may be considered a skirmish line by their found position, say that.

Maybe Sweet did not mess up by placing markers where there was no justification for placing them, but the soldiers he was supervising certainly did, and he was responsible so that point of your's stands.

Just as a point of order here for I do not know the answer. There were 249 markers, and I believe 210 known casualties in the Custer area, so were not the remainder intended for the Reno portion of the battlefield? If they were then do we know if any of these bodies were buried where they fell or buried in a mass or gathered in one place site. A few of these markers intended for Reno's men are in the valley I think, but I have never personally seen them, and I do not recall seeing any markers in the Reno hill area, although I did not walk that area due to time constraints.

Hi Chuck

Deep Gully ( a portion of Deep Ravine)  is steep sided and deeper than one can observe anything except straight up.  They found scratch marks of soldiers trying to climb out . Indian drawing show the soldiers all mixed up rather than on a line or moving. 

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

Was it that way then or was it a bit different. I don't know that answer, and I suspect no one else does either. My money, if I was forced to bet, is that Deep Gully area has filled in considerably in the last 150 years, and it was considerably wider, and even deeper then than it is now.

Are you trying to tell me, no, I know you are not but it sounds like it, that some Indian version of Frederick Reminington painting the charge up San Juan Heights while viewing it real time, was down in that gully painting the scene depicted in that drawing you refer to, also in real time. If you are saying that, then you either commune with the departed, or someone is fibbing to you. If you're not saying that, but still take what Indians draw as being totally accurate, rather than just based on an idea of what they think happened after the fact, then you are being deluded, or are deluding yourself.

Steve, one of these days, sometime when you least expect it to occur, you are going to come to realize that Little Big Horn is a giant Bull Shit Factory, from both sides. Everyone has a pound or two to sell the unsuspecting Rube. Some of it smells better than the rest, but in the main it is still bull shit.

[miker]

Sweet and his company botched the mission, but having said that they were cavalryman, not a graves registration unit (we let you down easy), archeologists, or even trained observers. However, Sweet seems to me to be more interested in getting rid of the markers rather than accurately placing them for our ease in understanding the battle and moving on to whatever his next mission/chore was. Somewhat understandable.

Chapter 8 of Archeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn states soldier 'reports' of seeing the bodies and marks indicating soldiers tried to climb out of the draw. It also shows a picture of Deep Ravine from 1937 and one from 1987 showing the banks were steeper and more eroded in 1987 then in 1937. One could postulate that the ravine was much steeper in 1876. No remains or artifacts were found in the ravine in 1987 providing three possibilities: (1) they have been moved by natural events downstream and buried deeper than before, (2) they were washed into the river and are someplace else, (3) they were never there. (the last seems unlikely, since a year later reports say that some bones were observed sticking out of the ground.)

Scott, in his book "Uncovering History" states "The archaeological materials show that horses died there, men died there, and there was fighting along the trail where the white marble markers now stand. It was probably a breakout attempt, as the oral accounts suggest. The issue is whether it was organized or helter-skelter. The archaeological evidence is not strong enough to refute or support either assumption (see figures 21, 35–38). (Scott, Douglas D.. Uncovering History . University of Oklahoma Press. Kindle Edition.) However, his work seems to indicate that some remains were found in or near the Ravine seemingly contradicting Archeological Perspectives." It seems to me from the text that evidence has been recovered from the trail leading to and/or perhaps adjacent to the ravine, but not in the ravine.

In 1996 "1996: Coleman Research. Geophysical remote sensing studies in Deep Ravine, Cemetery Ravine, and Reno-Benteen in an attempt to locate buried features (Applied Ground Imaging (1996; Coleman Research 1996). An anomaly was identified in Deep Ravine that is consistent with historical accounts and geomorphology, suggesting a site for the burial of the purported twenty-eight missing men. (Scott, Douglas D.. Uncovering History . University of Oklahoma Press. Kindle Edition.)

He also states "Carroll discovered a skull cap in a ravine 2,000 yards from the Last Stand Hill monument, probably Deep Ravine (Scott and Owsley 1991). (Scott, Douglas D.. Uncovering History . University of Oklahoma Press. Kindle Edition.), but the wording to me does not really specify whether the skull cap was found in or near the raving.

He specifies several "new" finds (at the time of publication) that were found (very) near the Ravine.

"Where Custer Fell" has photographs similar to, but later than) the ones I mention above where the slope is more gentle than the 1937 photograph.

"The Mystery of E Troop" by Greg Machino postulates the troopers are actually in "Cemetery Ravine" but Fox disputes this due to lack of evidence. (I regard one of Machino's other work highly because he displays a certain rigor in calculating the area of the Indian village and also seems to be a wargamer. Wargamers, as is well known, are fairly analytical but also prone to make unnecessary leaps of logic from game play which can mimic but never really duplicate, actual events.)

Thus, it appears likely the remnants of E Company ran toward the river and the ravine and were killed in or near the ravine. This indicates, to me, a panicked run for the (mis)perceived safety of the ravine (and perhaps toward the enemy) and not any attempt to form a skirmish line in any rational direction. I think if it was a controlled move, it would have been up the hill (go for the high ground) of LSH and Custer rather than down the hill toward the river. But who can say what a group of panicked men will do.

I find the Indian drawings terribly hard to correlate (actually I can't see any real resemblance) with a map or photograph. I note the Indians were not trained illustrators but the painters seem to have natural talent. Officers were apparently given instruction in 'battlefield' sketching up until at least World War I. (My platoon and company fire plans are extremely primitive in comparison and not nearly as good as the Indian drawings, and do not show anything like real terrain. Rommel's sketches in his book and others I have seen from other officers are several orders of magnitude better than mine or the Indians. But since both Indians and 7th survivors say the bodies were there and the saw "signs" indicating the troopers tried to climb out of the ravine, incline me to believe the accounts, but one will not know for sure till evidence is found.

[quincannon]

Anyone who thinks that I do not believe there were soldiers who sought cover in Deep Ravine/Gully and died there somewhat misunderstands the point I am trying to make here. I do believe it. I believe Company E came off of Cemetery Ridge either as a directed move, or in a panic, and possibly both, and tried to form a position on or near the lip of Deep Ravine, and with the passage of time some of them in the last extremity were forced down into the gully, either to find better cover, or hide from the inevitable. All this is perfectly logical and consistent with human behavior under great stress.

What I find comical though is taking Indian drawing seriously, and by that I mean seriously as a representation of cold hard indisputable fact. They were done after the fact. We don't even know if the person doing the drawing was actually at the battle or if he was, was in a position to observe the event. Even some photos taken during battle can be subject to interpretation, or even distortion. Ian posted one such photo here a few months ago in a you tube video, something that was quite interesting, for more than the photo. The person in that video claiming to be the person in the photo, was nowhere near where that photo was taken. He was then either mistaken, or a pink pants lying son of a bitch reaching for the brass ring of immortality.

The Indian drawings should be taken seriously though, seriously as beautiful works of art, but nothing more.

There is only one person I know of that actually drew and painted at the scene of a combat action, that being Frederick Remington during the Spanish American War. William Randolph Hurst told Remington "Freddy you supply the pictures I'll supply the war".  Hurst hired Remington, sent him to Cuba, and his paintings and drawings of those battles are classics of military art. One showing the 71st New York Infantry getting creamed by Spanish artillery fire as they tried to cross a creek on the way to San Juan Heights is a particular favorite of mine. Remington was under that artillery fire as he was painting the event. I once had a book on the Span Am War, given to my father by his Uncle Al, who claimed to be a Rough Rider. It was full of Remington drawings and paintings. Don't know whatever happened to it, but I would love to have it today.

By the way, it seems my father's Uncle Al was no more a Rough Rider than Bugs Bunny, but that's another story best forgotten in Altoona, Pennsylvania. I know he was mustered into Federal Service with the Pennsylvania National Guard, never serving outside the United States. It seems though that the notoriety of the Rough Riders was so great immediately after the war, that everyone who thought they could get away with it claimed to be a Rough Rider. How do I know this? I checked and my source was Colonel Theodore Roosevelt. Good enough for me I suppose.

[azranger]

Apr 4, 2023 20:38:52 GMT quincannon said:

Was it that way then or was it a bit different. I don't know that answer, and I suspect no one else does either. My money, if I was forced to bet, is that Deep Gully area has filled in considerably in the last 150 years, and it was considerably wider, and even deeper then than it is now.

Are you trying to tell me, no, I know you are not but it sounds like it, that some Indian version of Frederick Reminington painting the charge up San Juan Heights while viewing it real time, was down in that gully painting the scene depicted in that drawing you refer to, also in real time. If you are saying that, then you either commune with the departed, or someone is fibbing to you. If you're not saying that, but still take what Indians draw as being totally accurate, rather than just based on an idea of what they think happened after the fact, then you are being deluded, or are deluding yourself.

Steve, one of these days, sometime when you least expect it to occur, you are going to come to realize that Little Big Horn is a giant Bull Shit Factory, from both sides. Everyone has a pound or two to sell the unsuspecting Rube. Some of it smells better than the rest, but in the main it is still bull shit.

Chuck

That is one reason I am involved. I started looking at it as something to do other than working. It would not be entertaining if it were easy to solve. I have met lots of non military and non law enforcement people and gained friends outside those parameters. That is what was desired in the training we took at Department School. The class was expand the world we live as officers. It worked.

Do I use some of the skills I learned as an officer. You bet! I have patrolled horseback over thousands of mile and recorded a lot of the rides with a GPS unit. It was a door opener with Gordon Harper who wanted to put GPS locations in his book. That never happened because he passed away. I brought my saddle and GPS and we went on the Benteen to the Left movement using Roger Darlings book. He had gathered almost all the comments and observations in one place. 

I know others had ridden it but they can only give a verbal account. The GPS recorded the elevational ups and downs and recorded where we went through defiles. 

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

You really need to buy several 2000 piece jigsaw puzzles Steve, they are a lot less frustrating than trying to figure out what happened at LBH. Not quite as frustrating as trying to figure out is Salieri actually murdered Mozart, but almost so.

Sit back, pour yourself a glass of iced tea, and listen to Hillary Hahn play Vaughan-Williams' "Lark Ascending". You will either be enchanted and forget all about LBH or it will put you to sleep. Both work.

[miker]

Apr 10, 2023 14:59:02 GMT azranger said:

[I brought my saddle and GPS and we went on the Benteen to the Left movement using Roger Darlings book. He had gathered almost all the comments and observations in one place. 

I know others had ridden it but they can only give a verbal account. The GPS recorded the elevational ups and downs and recorded where we went through defiles. 

Regards

Steve

And yet when I or others ask about GPS coordinates of areas you’ve been to, you don’t share them 🤪