mac
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Post by mac on Apr 11, 2023 3:51:05 GMT
Mike says "Thus, it appears likely the remnants of E Company ran toward the river and the ravine and were killed in or near the ravine. This indicates, to me, a panicked run for the (mis)perceived safety of the ravine (and perhaps toward the enemy) and not any attempt to form a skirmish line in any rational direction. I think if it was a controlled move, it would have been up the hill (go for the high ground) of LSH and Custer rather than down the hill toward the river. But who can say what a group of panicked men will do."
QC says "I believe Company E came off of Cemetery Ridge either as a directed move, or in a panic, and possibly both, and tried to form a position on or near the lip of Deep Ravine, and with the passage of time some of them in the last extremity were forced down into the gully, either to find better cover, or hide from the inevitable. All this is perfectly logical and consistent with human behavior under great stress."
The Indian accounts say that when LSH fell the Indians ran up the Western flank of the hill. The side the Indian Monument is on. At this time a small group (estimates vary around 15-20) of soldiers ran off the hill down to where the others (Company E) were still fighting. That is East (away from the Indian assault), down hill, to the Cemetery Ridge position.
When the Cemetery position was overwhelmed the soldiers who could, ran South (away from the Indian assault), down into Deep Coulee. Yes near the lip of the ravine. Here they came under fire from both those chasing them off Cemetery and also from Indians on the end of Greasy Grass Ridge. Where is left to go? Deep Ravine.
Totally agree with you gentlemen. Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 11, 2023 12:56:55 GMT
[I brought my saddle and GPS and we went on the Benteen to the Left movement using Roger Darlings book. He had gathered almost all the comments and observations in one place. I know others had ridden it but they can only give a verbal account. The GPS recorded the elevational ups and downs and recorded where we went through defiles. Regards Steve
And yet when I or others ask about GPS coordinates of areas you’ve been to, you don’t share them 🤪 Hi Mike
I must have missed it. Sorry
I only used my GPS on the Benteen route. I will be there this June and if you want some particular location I will get it.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2023 14:42:23 GMT
Steve: Mike likes to plot everything out on a map, as do I. The map he had made is really conducive to doing that. It's the expanded larger scale version of the USGS 1:24000 sheet, scaled up to 1.12500. Makes a huge difference. It was using that map that convinced me that whomever viewed what was going on in the valley from the bluffs did not do it from Bm 3411, but rather from the vicinity of Weir. As I said in my first and only post on this conclusion - It's the angle of the dangle, much the same as what you did on the ups and downs of the Benteen ride.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2023 19:28:45 GMT
[I brought my saddle and GPS and we went on the Benteen to the Left movement using Roger Darlings book. He had gathered almost all the comments and observations in one place. I know others had ridden it but they can only give a verbal account. The GPS recorded the elevational ups and downs and recorded where we went through defiles. Regards Steve And yet when I or others ask about GPS coordinates of areas you’ve been to, you don’t share them 🤪
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2023 19:29:15 GMT
And yet when I or others ask about GPS coordinates of areas you’ve been to, you don’t share them 🤪 Hi Mike
I must have missed it. Sorry
I only used my GPS on the Benteen route. I will be there this June and if you want some particular location I will get it.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2023 19:32:06 GMT
Mike
On the Benteen Scout to the Left there is 103 waypoints. Which if any do want?
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2023 19:45:26 GMT
Steve: Mike likes to plot everything out on a map, as do I. The map he had made is really conducive to doing that. It's the expanded larger scale version of the USGS 1:24000 sheet, scaled up to 1.12500. Makes a huge difference. It was using that map that convinced me that whomever viewed what was going on in the valley from the bluffs did not do it from Bm 3411, but rather from the vicinity of Weir. As I said in my first and only post on this conclusion - It's the angle of the dangle, much the same as what you did on the ups and downs of the Benteen ride. I agree. I use Google Earth Pro and anywhere you place your marker it gives the GPS coordinates. I will try an get on the ground GPS coordinates this June for any location someone would like. I can also look at my working map and get the coordinates if that is close enough? Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to coordinates to where people are referencing and their names. I have ridden down Middle Coulee but the actual route is wider than then what single rider would record. So I am not sure what Mike is asking. For example the Butler marker is not in the original location but it is the only place most people know. The actual location was to the north in a drainage. I am all about us working on the same page but I need to know the specific locations. Regards Steve
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Post by miker on May 25, 2023 23:35:04 GMT
Steve,
I haven't really given a lot of thought to what grid coordinates I am interested in lately. sorry. I should have been more responsive after my small tirade.
I have Darling's book on the scout. That's an interesting book. I think if Benteen had gone all the way to the Little Bighorn Valley and then turned North, the battle would have been an even bigger disaster. He did right by breaking off the mission and finding the main trail.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 7, 2023 16:29:40 GMT
miker
I agree that would have doubled his time. I think Custer was aware of the south fork of Reno Creek through Herendeen. Herendeen had been in a fight there two years prior. I went to that battle site with my friend Chip Watts. SFRC is a travel corridor all the way to Lodge Grass. It has available water throughout.
From the divide it is nearly impossible to point out which hills form the boundary of SFRC. So at best Custer would say to valley hunt. I always wondered why valley hunting came up in the RCOI. If Custer wanted Benteen to go the river and then turn upstream it would not matter how many drainages he would cross.
I believe Benteen did exactly what Custer wanted him to do. Gibson looked into SFRC and there were no Indians for Benteen to cut off. Benteen returned to Reno Creek arriving behind Custer and ahead of the pack train.
Regards
Steve
I am leaving for the battlefield on Monday do you have any requests for me to look at?
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Post by miker on Jun 7, 2023 18:40:27 GMT
Steve, thanks for the offer for look ups. Maybe photos from both sides of Ford B with a grid coordinate and an azimuth. I think, from my limited study, that Benteen thought he was being deliberately put out of the fight (Hadn't we better keep the Regiment together, sir?) and that is what the mission felt like. Fort Riley has some similar terrain and I have been surprised about how hard the terrain can be to read. Especially when we got new maps with a 20 meter contour interval instead of a 20 foot contour interval. It takes a lot of getting used to it. Are you going to that presentation that I think is this month? I'd be interested in any books, pamphlets, etc. coming out of that. Not for you to buy them for me but so I can send off for them. Thanks for any thing you might find interesting to me.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 8, 2023 15:36:35 GMT
"Being deliberately kept out of the fight" Bollocks! Benteen was stating a tactical imperative - Do not divide your force in the face of the enemy, and especially do not do it if your force is half the "known" size of the enemy force. Just because Lee got away with it by sure dumb luck a couple of times does not give Custer license to be a dumb shit. That's what Benteen was saying. Nothing more than that could or should be read into it.
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Post by miker on Jun 8, 2023 17:52:11 GMT
Chuck, I agree Benteen understood and stated the imperative. My supposition has nothing to do with Benteen but Custer wanting to be rid of him. But I don't know. All I know/think is Custer told him what to do, Benteen offered a suggestion for Custer to consider, was disregarded, conducted his mission and turned to rejoin the regiment at the time when he felt he had accomplished his mission and there was no chance of finding the enemy on the southern reaches of the LBH.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 8, 2023 19:31:29 GMT
In1890, the US owned a square mile or so of the land on which the five companies were destroyed. 249 markers were ordered, supplied, and shipped to the battlefield with Capt. Sweet ordered to place them there. He wasnot ordered to place markers on the land where Reno's defence took place, and I assume this was because the land belonged to the Crow tribe. The Reno Hill land was not purchased until.... the late 1920's. Sweet disobeyed Brisbin's orders by placing markers beyond the limit of the Custer Battlefield. There is a taster HERE and Walter M. Camp's notes reflect his interest in the monument, markers, and terrain features, including raising concern with Godfrey about it. Sweet did a good job. Brisbin issued his orders. Sweet found himself with a conundrum to solve and did his best. He could of course have messaged Brisbin and queried the orders....... Anyways......... I believe that his company were subsequently issued bicycles and cycled across the USA. I joke not! 25th Infantry. Owen J. Sweet An interesting guy not averse to controversies
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 11, 2023 16:51:40 GMT
In1890, the US owned a square mile or so of the land on which the five companies were destroyed. 249 markers were ordered, supplied, and shipped to the battlefield with Capt. Sweet ordered to place them there. He wasnot ordered to place markers on the land where Reno's defence took place, and I assume this was because the land belonged to the Crow tribe. The Reno Hill land was not purchased until.... the late 1920's. Sweet disobeyed Brisbin's orders by placing markers beyond the limit of the Custer Battlefield. There is a taster HERE and Walter M. Camp's notes reflect his interest in the monument, markers, and terrain features, including raising concern with Godfrey about it. Sweet did a good job. Brisbin issued his orders. Sweet found himself with a conundrum to solve and did his best. He could of course have messaged Brisbin and queried the orders....... Anyways......... I believe that his company were subsequently issued bicycles and cycled across the USA. I joke not! 25th Infantry. Owen J. Sweet An interesting guy not averse to controversies HR
Everyone knows that there were not 249 soldiers in Custer's command yet Sweet placed them there creating spurious markers. The markers read a soldier fell here. Maybe yes maybe no Great Job Sweet They have been there so long that NPS considers even the spurious ones as historic. Sweet made no record of where he placed the extra 39 markers.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2023 21:28:16 GMT
In1890, the US owned a square mile or so of the land on which the five companies were destroyed. 249 markers were ordered, supplied, and shipped to the battlefield with Capt. Sweet ordered to place them there. He wasnot ordered to place markers on the land where Reno's defence took place, and I assume this was because the land belonged to the Crow tribe. The Reno Hill land was not purchased until.... the late 1920's. Sweet disobeyed Brisbin's orders by placing markers beyond the limit of the Custer Battlefield. There is a taster HERE and Walter M. Camp's notes reflect his interest in the monument, markers, and terrain features, including raising concern with Godfrey about it. Sweet did a good job. Brisbin issued his orders. Sweet found himself with a conundrum to solve and did his best. He could of course have messaged Brisbin and queried the orders....... Anyways......... I believe that his company were subsequently issued bicycles and cycled across the USA. I joke not! 25th Infantry. Owen J. Sweet An interesting guy not averse to controversies HR
Everyone knows that there were not 249 soldiers in Custer's command yet Sweet placed them there creating spurious markers. The markers read a soldier fell here. Maybe yes maybe no Great Job Sweet They have been there so long that NPS considers even the spurious ones as historic. Sweet made no record of where he placed the extra 39 markers.
Regards
AZ Ranger That was done in 1891, by Bob R. Marshall and early in his illustrious career. Big Beaver
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