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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2020 5:50:20 GMT
As I am sure many of you have heard by now there is a bill in Congress, presently in the Senate, with I believe Republican sponsorship, that would rename ten Army Post currently named for Confederates.
This, in my opinion is nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to current events, although in the behind the scenes Army, there has been growing support for such a measure over the last twenty or so years. Support for this measure will wane a bit when the Army sees the price tag, which may very well be several billion, up to ten or a little more, when you consider the totality of expenses involved in such a move. It is not just a matter of changing the sign over the front gate. In many cases it also involves camp sites, roads, streets, building, and a whole host of other things that have acquired Confederate names over the last hundred years. Then there are the administrative costs, that range from new unit letterhead, to new maps, and more things that could possible come to mind at the moment. Some costs will be born by the State and cities where these posts are located, and they have no say in the matter of how they must spend their dollars. One such example is when Falcon Air Force Base's name was changed to Schriever Air Force Base, in my neck of the woods about fifteen years ago. The State of Colorado and El Paso County screamed bloody murder about the Federal Government imposing upon them the forced spending of un-programed dollars. The Army too will loose a lot of its willingness to change these names when the find out that the money to do it will come out of hide.
So, I rate this as a fifty-fifty proposition at this point. Keep in mind that despite the rhetoric from some Washington quarters, it is still Congress that is charged with raising and maintaining armies, and there are a hell of a lot of ways for Congress to skin this particular cat.
For the record and before any of you sharpen your knives, I am against the proposal, for one reason only. It is a complete waste of taxpayers money for a feel good. Stuff and nonsense.
I would not be human though if I did not ponder what some name changes might be, A couple of examples
Colt's old stomping ground Fort Hood. Hood commanded the Texas Brigade for a short time, and while Hood had a division in the ANV, the Texas Brigade was always a part of his division. Hood though was from Kentucky, not Texas. If one had to rename Fort Hood, my suggestion would be Fort Audie Murphy.
Fort Bragg. First off why anyone would name anything larger than a two hole latrine after Braxton Bragg baffles me in the first place. Might an appropriate re-name candidate be Fort Ridgeway?
Fort Gordon. Eisenhower had a long association with Augusta, Georgia. Might not Fort Eisenhower be appropriate?
Fort Benning. I have a deep gut pain even thinking about renaming Benning School For Wayward Boys. If it has to be renamed though there would, considering that Benning is now the home of the Maneuver Center, be no better name than Fort Patton.
I hope none of this ever comes to pass, It is not the same issue as monuments, and to join both of these issues at the hip is a mistake for all parties involved.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2020 9:37:16 GMT
It has also gone crazy over here too, these people whoever they are, want all statues removing of anyone who has any history with the slave trade or colonialism, which is a lot of statues, including Cromwell, Drake, Capt. Cook, Churchill and Lord Nelson. Someone suggested that we take Nelson off his column and replace him with Nelson Mandell, that way we could still call it Nelsons Column.
So really, we they want us to replace our Nelson who they say was racists, and replace him with a terrorist, crazy world!
You never hear mentioned the slave ports in Africa, which slaves were brought, usually after Arab slave traders have kidnapped them from their villages and transported them to these ports to sell to Europeans.
The slave trade was a horrible business, thank god the people of Liverpool were the first to abolish it. But the slave trade isn’t new, you can even take this back to the Egyptians and Romans, what next demolish the colosseum in Rome?
I don’t know how it works in the states, but over here many of these slave traders, colonials and merchants, put a lot of wealth into their local area by buildings Libraries, art galleries, schools, universities, collages, hospitals and even houses for the poor. To them their wealth meant that they could do some good, so really, we have bad money spent on good causes.
I suggest that if these people want to take down these statues, then they should also knock down the buildings built by these men, many of which are still in use today and serve all colours and creeds which live in that area.
These people, whoever they are, are so Hypocritical that they want to take down statues of these men, many of which are right outside these great buildings, but keep the buildings in situ so they can use them. Why don’t they ask for them to be removed from public service, then these people could all pitch in and pay for a new build to replace it, that way they can use these buildings with a clear conscience or pay for the streets and roads named after these men, so they can live in them and not feel bad about it.
Bottom line is, that you can’t obliterate history from the face of the map, it doesn’t work like that, many of these statues and buildings were put up over two centuries ago and these men are long gone, so taking this too far will only cause resentment from British people who just want to get on with their lives.
I see that all the road signs in Penny Lane in Liverpool have been painted with black paint with the word racists added too, what next Queen Victorias Statues because she had an empire!
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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2020 16:36:58 GMT
Ian, you have inspired me.
I intend on doing a long post on this subject this afternoon. Meanwhile, I think we all must consider this subject as not only fair game, but essential to be out here in the public, rather than the private forum, for it is an issue for all Americans, and as Ian demonstrates, all the world to consider. The issue is not going away, until it is solved, and the solving must be done in such a way as to not foster hidden resentments, which in itself proves that the issue is not really solved only dormant and hidden. Let's keep politics out of it here, because no one, regardless of what side they may be on, wants such an important subject reduced to name calling. That is for other places, and other times.
So express your opinions, while I work finishing my Sherman, and starting on my Stuart (yes that Stuart - and I intend on doing a Lee too, as soon as I can find a good one) while I have the benefit of the natural morning light. As Washington remarked to his officers -"My eyes have grown dim in my country's service".
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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2020 18:32:24 GMT
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see"
John Newton who wrote that hymn, which is sung every Sunday in churches in all of the three lands that those here on this board live in, was a slave trader, who later in life became an clergyman. It is a song of redemption, a change in the way we live our lives, in part, to mitigate the wrong we have done. Many, myself included, believe it to be a "God's got ya" tale, where He, through Divine Providence sends us one of life's trials that is so serious, so dangerous, so terrifying, that it led us to call on God's help to save us, and the redemption that such an experience leads us to.
The names on these Army Posts that honor Confederates, and the monuments to them that inhabit every city in the South, are offensive to many. Some are a sign of intended intimidation dating from Jim Crow. In our struggle to sort this out, we must however NEVER make the very same mistake that police departments and politicians are accused of this very day, of dehumanizing our fellow man. To a man, all of these Confederate heroes committed high treason upon the United States. That is not arguable, nor is it open for discussion. It is pure fact. But, can we, based upon that, dehumanize any of them, from commanding general to high private, any more than we can dehumanize George Floyd, who also made grave mistakes in his life. My answer is NO. In fact my answer is HELL NO. We can't, for if we do, the mark of Cain in God's eyes falls upon us, for He so loved the world he gave his only son, who while dying at men's hands forgave them. There is one thing that all the religions of the world have in common - You are, or you aren't. You either are in all the way, or out all the way. There are no half measures. You cannot wench and play cards on Saturday night, and pray on Sunday, without a redemptive moment in between, a God's got ya.
So the question is can we judge these Confederates, on the fact that they were Confederates alone, or should they be judged in the present and by history, on the totality of their lives, without dehumanizing them for some political or feel good purpose? I think we should, but it should be done, in such a manner that takes everyone's views into consideration, not just the views of one side. I think God took that same view, when each of them stood before Him to be judged. Should we have a different standard of judgment than the Almighty Himself? That just may be a titch too much even for an all loving God.
To be continued. My paint is dry. Onward around McClellan's flank my Stuart proceeds.
Now for a bit of history. Yes my paint is drying again.
The question must be asked why these camps were established in the South in the first place and why were they named for Confederates.
a. The first part of that question is easy. Weather is the answer, good weather, throughout most of the year, which facilitates training of both ground and air forces. Remember the U S Air Service, at the time, needed to train fledgling aviators too, and good flying weather was essential to that training. There is also an old saying in the Army that you do not have to practice to be miserable ( I disagree, but that's another story). The problem was that from a standing start of a very small army, mass armies had to be raised and trained rapidly, lest the Yanks destined for "Over There" would arrive too late to impede German offensive plans for 1917/18. That takes good weather to do it rapidly and efficiently.
b. The second part is a bit more complicated. During the Spanish American War, support for the war effort in the South was tepid. US Troops being stationed and passing through the South were resented. Most notably was the 10th Cavalry Regiment, who went on to save Teddy's bacon on San Juan Heights that coming July. The ACW was still too raw in the memories of people who were removed from the savagery of war by only a single generation. Twenty years later, political minds, thought that history might repeat itself, and frankly they needed the South, for the purpose outlined above. In one of the best political decision the Army ever made, they decided to name these new founded mobilization camps after people who the South knew and revered. The exception was Camp McClellan, and how that camp ever got that name in Anniston, Alabama is a mystery to this day. The same formula applied to the camps in the North and West, mostly after Union generals, but not necessarily for the same purpose. Simply put it was feel good with the purpose of gaining the South's support. Most of those forty or so camps are gone now. In some cases they have been taken over by the States and re-purposed. A couple are municipal airports, others still are used by the states National Guard, a few have disappeared under the plow, and still others are neighborhoods with a street bearing the name Wheeler, or Trimble, that may be the only reminder of their previous existence.
c. In a later era during World War II there were a few additional Confederate names given to Camps. Camp Hood was given to the new installation in Killean, Texas. Looking at it though, it was not the political move that spurred such naming in World War I. Instead it was a practical matter of Camp Bowie and Fort Sam Houston, along with Camp Travis, and Fort Crockett, being either already active installations or sub-installations (Travis - at Fort Sam), so they looked around for another name associated with Texas and landed upon John Bell Hood, arguably the best division commander (Longstreet thought so anyway) in the Army of Northern Virginia, during his tenure with that Army. The A. P Hill Military Reservation was another WWII creation. That one is a bit different. The land near Tom's old home, that became APHMR was the camp site of Hill's Division during the Fall and Winter of 1862-63. The name was just a natural fit - that's all. Originally the post, which was first elevated to Camp and then Fort status, but after the war, was only a maneuver area in the war years. There may have been ten or so temporary buildings, and not much had changed when I first set foot on the place. So consider what is past as you ponder these things, and I will start riding with Stuart again.
To be continued.
One, it has been said many times should never put problems on the table without offering possible solutions. I will do that now, then, hopefully, there can be full and meaningful discussion on the issue.
Army Posts: I would first take renaming completely out of the hands of the President, regardless of who that President is, and the Army. Further I suggest it be left to a vote of the people in the areas immediately effected by a name change of any particular post. By that I mean the immediate area surrounding the post, including cities, towns, and counties that serve the post. I would do it by vote, limiting the voting area to just those most effected by any name/renaming action. Majority rule. Accompanying this would be legislation from Congress that agrees to reimburse any cost incurred by the State or local jurisdiction in the event that the vote's result is to rename. That legislation would also plus up the Army's appropriation, so that the cost of renaming would not have to be taken out of hide, which may effect modernization and readiness.
Statues: These in my mind fall into two categories:
The statue dedicated to any one Confederate individual can remain, or be moved, at local discretion, provided that the person being honored by that statue has a connection with the locality. Henry Benning is an example of this. I don't know if he has a statue, but any statue of him should be in the city of Columbus, Georgia, where he was a lifelong resident and prominent citizen. Another example, the JEB Stuart statue in Richmond. Stuart as far as I know had no direct connection with Richmond other than dying there in 1864. As Tom reminded me the other day his statue is prominently located on Stuart Circle, and a nearby hospital that carries the name is located there as well. It is my opinion that a better venue for that statue would be at Yellow Tavern, or on or near Stuarts grave at Hollywood Cemetery. There may be a couple other meaningful to Stuart venues as well such as the place he started or ended his ride around McClellan.
Lee is a special case. He represents the Confederate South as a whole. That is painful to many who would not know the other Confederates if they fell over them, but they all know Lee. If there is going to only be one statue of Lee in Virginia, then there are only two possible places it should be other than a battlefield - the grounds of the Confederate Museum in Richmond, or on the campus of Washington and Lee University in Lexington.
This brings me to the last suggestion, the Confederate on the Courthouse Lawn. Most of these were placed there in the Jim Crow era, and many say that they were placed on the courthouse lawn to send a message. Intentional or not that message has gotten through to many generations of Black Americans. You all know what it is so it does not need repeating. Should we tear them down? HELL NO, rather recycle them for what was supposedly their intended purpose in the first place. In most cases these monuments were put there to honor the citizens of that town who went off to war.. Their dedications read something similar to Company C, 10th Virginia Volunteers. OK, let's use them, by moving them to the city or town cemetery, where they may be monuments to those that passed through, went to war, some not returning, others that returned and led full and productive lives in the aftermath.
I have had my say, I hope you will now have yours
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2020 20:01:04 GMT
Amen Chuck.
As I said before, the slave trade has been going on for thousands of years, but for some reason everyone links it to the UK and the USA.
Just take Liverpool, now that city has some of the finest Georgian buildings in the country, buildings that if you ask some one to build them now, couldn’t do it because the trades to do such a build, don’t exist.
Liverpool had hundreds of them, so does every city in the UK, so imagine what our city centres would be like if all of these huge splendid building suddenly get demolished? That is a era of beautiful structures gone. I would say that if you smash the lot down, knock down all the statues and change all the street names, it will not do a bit of good as racism would be still here and resentment would make it worse.
The thing is that this act of destroying things linked with slavery and colonialism has no parameters because the mob who does these acts have not thought it through. Who’s next the Roman baths at in Bath, the Romans built that and they had no qualms in using slaves, let’s do the pyramids too, now the Egyptians certainly used thousands of slaves. I know let’s knock down the ruins of every amphitheatre in Europe because the Romans used to force slaves to fight just for fun.
No one on this board likes slavery or is a racists, but why don’t these people try and end modern day slavery, which is going on right now, in most of the cities in the world, people trafficking is slavery, so is these nutters in Africa who raid villages, kill then the men and take the women and kids, now that is something we should be focusing on, not a blokes statue who is dead and gone, Jesus they even tried to knock down the statue of Robert Baden Powell, the man who gave the kids of this world a chance to be proud of themselves.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2020 20:19:17 GMT
Bless you my boy, you have found that "Amazing Grace" Keep reading the post above as there will be more added to it as the afternoon and evening progress. I want to get this all out of my system at one, then throw it open for a peaceful discussion of the roots of this issue.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 13, 2020 10:09:11 GMT
The theme of this thread may very well be a moot point, based on an e-mail I received late last evening from my contact who is well placed. Some of you know who he is and where he works, but that information is not suitable for the public forum.
From the Army perspective the renaming of these ten posts is all but a done deal, and only a matter of time. They have growing bi-partisan support in both Houses of Congress, and the Blessed Ones, the retired General Officers, are fully behind it as well, with the full support of their counterparts in the Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force.
Now if you don't think the doings of the last couple of weeks is serious and lasting, and you may not, consider that Arkansas is in the process of removing two Confederate associated statues from Statuary Hall in the U S Capitol. Looks like your monuments are gone fellows, and all these posts will have new names. In fact the name selection process has already begun.
I see no further need for discussion of this matter, save to say that we still have no business dehumanizing these Confederates. If we do, we are no better than the forces we seek to change in part because some of them dehumanize U S Citizens.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 13, 2020 12:59:57 GMT
Strangely I was thinking today that names are for their time in most cases and so why not change, as these guys have had their century plus...then I thought why is there no Fort Patton or Eisenhower? Well done QC As to statues they too are of their time, and for many a simple update may be to simply add a plaque giving the history of the person, warts and all, so that passers by may learn some history and dare I say context, and then become more empathic and less judgemental. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jun 13, 2020 15:37:12 GMT
I have since my first post rethought the name change for Benning. Fort Marshall. Marshall was commandant of the Infantry School during the 1930's and he therefore has a more prominent connection with the post than Patton. Patton, might replace Murphy, as the preset Fort Hood, is one of two posts most associated with Armor in our Army. The other is Bliss, but Bliss was not a Confederate. Murphy does deserve something though, and in my mind that something should be in Texas. Maybe Colt knows the name of that large National Guard headquarters reservation in Austin. I cannot recall the present name,but that might be a suitable Murphy venue.
It is ironic to me Mac that one post Fort Lee, is the easiest of all to change, costing virtually no money. All that need be done is for the Department of the Army to cut a General Order, changing the name source from Robert E. to Light Horse Harry (Lee's father) who was a notable Virginian, Revolutionary War commander of note, and staunch patriot.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 13, 2020 18:24:58 GMT
The protesters were out again today, this time groups from both ends of the spectrum gathered in our capital. The ‘black lives matter’ groups were joined by right wing groups and like oil and water, these groups don’t mix.
The right-wing groups were fired up by what they saw last week with statues of Churchill and even the Cenotaph being attack by the lefties [or whatever they are called]. The gathered around these statues and land marks in battalion strength and it was only a matter of time before violence erupted with the police being the target.
I knew this would happen and have been saying all week, if you get one lot trying to force their views by damaging property and changing the names of local land marks, then you would get a rival force trying to stop them. Funny enough, I see a lot of pensioners during the course of my working week and none of them want to see any statues removed or buildings knocked down or street names changed.
I think the way they abused the Cenotaph would turn a lot of people against their cause as this structure was built to honour the war dead mainly from WW1, but now signifies all war dead. I don’t know what these protesters were thinking by targeting this war memorial, it certainly won’t help their cause.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 14, 2020 19:40:00 GMT
You know Mac I have come to the conclusion pondering the Confederacy in 21st Century America, mainly over the last 24 hours, that the United States, with its current attitudes in some quarters about the Confederacy, is like a man with curable cancer. He (and we) have three choices, the same as the man with what would become a fatal disease if left unattended to.
Choice A - Leave the cancer alone, the ultimate result of which would be a slow but certain death.
Choice B - Take half measures in treatment of the disease, by cutting out only the tumor, but leaving in place, all of the possibly infected lymph nodes surrounding the tumor. You might survive for a time that way, but there is a very good chance you will be back under the knife in a few years, and this time you might not get off the table.
Choice C - Get it over and done with. Go the whole way. It's is going to hurt like hell for possibly months or even a few years, but you will survive to see your grandchildren grow to adulthood, and there may also be a few great grandchildren in your future. There is nothing better than eating popcorn while watching you grandson play first base. Nothing better. If you want a memory of the cancer of the past, hang a picture of your tumor on your den wall where anyone interested can see it, and those most interested can research the disease by using your photograph.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 14, 2020 19:47:09 GMT
At last some civility and class, instead of upheaval, chaos and senseless behavior.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 14, 2020 22:11:42 GMT
If there are serious bones in my body I muster every goddamned one of them and say with the most sincere emotions - GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 15, 2020 9:42:07 GMT
‘LOL’ Chuck, in all my time on these boards, only two people have called me ‘my boy’ and that is you and Fred Wagner. Funny enough, I contacted Fred to see how he and his wife were getting on with the virus and all, just to see if they were aright and I never got a response, which was a tad unusual for Fred. I hope he is okay and still up and running.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 15, 2020 13:07:04 GMT
I know places where using "my boy" can get you very dead, very fast.
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