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Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2018 12:38:27 GMT
Dave, you should have invited him to join our website, I would very much like to trade posts with such a distinguished and imformative individual.
Did you say you met him at breakfast? where were Tom and Steve, not sleeping on off I hope!
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 18, 2018 0:01:57 GMT
Ian As usual I was inarticulate in my post. Mr. Donahue saw Steve at breakfast. Tom is still recovering from his water coursing efforts and is not making it to Montana this year, I believe. When I get my copy I will send him a written invitation to join the board.
Happy Father's day to you and all the fathers here. Regards David
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 18, 2018 22:22:55 GMT
I look forward to him visiting us, but I won't hold my breath. He is a man of vast knowledge of not only the battle but the terrain too and to write a book like "drawings" he must have plenty of data on Indian accounts. My fathers day was hit and miss, but never mind about that now as England won their opening game of the 2018 world cup, they beat Tunisia 2-1 in Stalingrad [well Volgograd as it is now called]
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 24, 2018 0:31:59 GMT
I received my copy of Where the Rivers Ran Red and am looking forward to reading it soon. I am presently reading Work for Giants by Thomas Parson which covers the June and July operations in North Mississippi in the campaign of The Battle of Tupelo/Harrisonburg. Tom is a retired Navy CPO who is a park Ranger at The Corinth Interpretative Center a satellite operation of the Shiloh National Military Park.
If anyone is interested in the operations of General Nathan Bedford Forrest and his forces and the Federal response under the command of General A. J. Smith in North Mississippi during the summer of 1864. It is well written, informative and truly a great read.
Regards
Dave
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 2, 2018 14:54:05 GMT
i did see Mike at the Lariat Kitchen in Hardin while ordering my favorite taco omelet. That is only half joking Dave. We are friends put are opposites in some important areas such as the second amendment. I think the best we can do is enjoy a friendship with regards to our common interests.
I also met Michael Bad Hand and spent some time at his camp. Truly an interesting person and enjoyed his company and seeing what he was doing. The camp is set up for photographers and for artists that what to do authentic paintings.
The bottom line is I picked up Tom's copy and had Michael sign it to Tom. I called Tom to see if he wanted a generic signing or to him personally.
Regards
Steve
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 3, 2018 4:02:44 GMT
I have done a very poor job of scheduling my time and activities this summer and have just now started reading Mr. Donahue's new book. I have carefully read and read the first 3 chapters so far and it has been a pleasure. Very well written and informative and will force me to study other sources to insure I am on the beam as much as possible. Very good read so far. Regards David PS Steve my copy is number 171 of 250 and signed
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 26, 2018 1:19:23 GMT
Steve,
Just got my copy today, #175 of 250. It actually arrived at the other house last Tuesday, thank you so much. Will attempt to dig in more tomorrow. The cover art by Michael is wonderful. I wonder if the title of that work "Custer's Last Stand-Where the Hell is Benteen?" is a harbinger of things there in contained!
I will try to give you my thoughts in days to come, so far the play by play of the GAC's earlier battles is brief, but comprehensive.
Thanks again for picking up my copy.
Regards, Tom
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 28, 2018 10:09:50 GMT
The information and history is excellent combined with some new names and nuggets, I had not seen before. However, almost from the get go Mike seems to want to denigrate Benteen at every opportunity. He mentions on page 42 that Benteen "Often speaking in a disparaging manner about almost every officer and soldier with whom he served, he would later claim few friends from his military service" On the next page he points out, "Benteen was charged with disrespectful behavior towards the commanding officer and conduct prejudicial to good order and military discipline." This letter was withdrawn by that commanding officer Captain Stanfording.
He has not mentioned that Godfrey and Benteen corresponded until his death. He has not yet mentioned his positive impact on Hugh Lenox Scott and how in some ways Scott patterned his style after Benteen. Scott mentions this in his book, "My Service in Custer's 7th Cavalry." Both of these men became General Officers.
He has yet to mention, "Benteen's Baseball Team" to provide "espret do corps" and as moral booster for the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry. We shall see if this continues.
It so far seems that Michael is going to try to hang the debacle at the LBH on Benteen, as if GAC even knew where Benteen was at the time he sent a fragmented note with Martini. Reno was lucky that Benteen returned to the main trail, Custer was not as he continued to distance himself from support.
It might not bother Michael that GAC hung out Reno and his men to dry/die. AS in "They were expendable." With no plan imparted to subordinates.
I guess non military types don't understand some things. I am certain there are others who could put this better than I, an officer takes an oath to support the constitution, he is responsible for the mission, he must carry out all legal orders, he is responsible for the men in his charge. When cut free as Custer was the responsibility is to complete the mission, but at some point that responsibility to your men comes into play.
Maybe I am reading this wrong but so far I see a theme, if not an agenda that may spoil an otherwise excellent project, thoroughly researched, and beautifully packaged in this work.
Regards, Tom
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 3, 2018 10:49:05 GMT
More regarding "Rivers Ran Red"
On page 150, Donahue states that Custer gave Benteen the lead in the movement of the regiment, on the 25th, due to his company’s readiness and being the first to report it. Yet, on page 152, Mike states that “Weir had one of the numerically strongest companies in the regiment. The 7th commander planned to have it accompany. The cantankerous Benteen challenged his supervisor by claiming company D. Custer blew up this time at the insubordinate spirit. Yet, he acquiesced, “well, damn it to hell, take D Co(mpany)."
"Custer wanted the confrontational captain away from him and Benteen was ordered with his three companies about 125 men to the high ridge on the left. Benteen held the lead for only 10 minutes." Temper, temper, not a leaders action, if he wanted Libby's escort near by, all he had to do was order it and move on. Is this a Benteen issue or a Custer issue?
Donahue’s description of the minutes leading up to the battle is a good as any I have read. His depiction of the valley fight is good as or better than Col. French Maclean’s "Custer’s Best: The Story of Company M, 7th Cavalry at the Little Bighorn."
In this version Privates Pickard, Banks and Korn left Custer (were dispatched) after Martin and survived. Fact not normally mentioned.
Page 170 - The beat continues Donahue says “Boston, who had waved at Benteen at the Morass approximately 20 minutes before, cut through to his brothers, temporarily escaping danger. Such timing means that if Benteen had not watered his horsed for such an extended time, he would been involved in the beginning stages of the fight along with Custer. His later statement that Custer’s five companies would have been dead by the time he received the important message, was unfounded.”
Let’s see: Custer watered horses; Reno watered his horses. When did the message arrive? At the morass? Did Benteen head to the sound of the guns? Did Benteen see the retreat from the valley? Did Benteen have the packs? No, Should he have stopped for Reno’s demoralized troops? Where did the note say to go? Reno or Custer? How long did it take for the packs to arrive? What a cluster “puck”/Custer puck’!
If Benteen goes ahead pell-mell, as Custer, did out distancing his support they all would have died to include the pack train.
This book will educate readers for sure, but it almost seems Michael is just as interested in slanting the readers view regarding Benteen.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 3, 2018 15:24:48 GMT
High Tom, I didn't know that Pickard, Banks and Korn had left after Martini, seems like you learn something every day.
All three battalions watered their horses at some point, Custer did just before he mounted the bluffs [north fork Reno creek?], Reno may have snatched a drink as they cross at ford A, but Benteen is supposed to have stopped at the morass to give his mounts a drink, but as far as I know, the morass is nowhere near the edge of the bluffs, see what Martini said at the RCOI;
Q. after Major Reno went ahead, state if General Custer remained on that side? A. Yes sir, we went on a jump all the way.
Q. How near did he go to the river there? A. He did not go near the river at all; we struck a little creek where we watered our horses. That was the only place we halted.
Q. was that after Major Reno had gone ahead? A. Yes sir.
Q. Had Major Reno gone to the left of the creek? A. Yes sir. Q. Tell how fast General Custer's column then went, and tells all you know about what direction and how far from the river, and whether you could see anything on the other side of the river? A. General Custer left that watering place and went about 300 yards in a straight line.
Q. Tell what you saw going back?
A. After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 5 or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.
Now, unless Benteen stopped twice before he came across Reno then this throws everything out of kilter.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 3, 2018 15:34:54 GMT
Tom, Pickard was in F Company, data says he was with the packs. Banks was in L Company also with the packs Korn was in I Company and in Custer column and ended up with the packs, some say he was a straggler.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 3, 2018 17:12:00 GMT
Who are some say? Was it not Korn who took care of Custer's horses, one of which remained with the trains.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 3, 2018 19:47:50 GMT
He was Keogh’s orderly that day and he reckons that he was riding down Medicine Tail Coulee with his company and his horse started to play up, it then bolted and took him right across ford B and through the village and ended up on Reno hill. His horse was wounded five times by the time he reached safety and he didn’t have a scratch.
I don’t know if he was the handler for Keogh’s horse, Comanche on the 25th, but he looked after it after the battle.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 3, 2018 19:53:38 GMT
Here is a bit more on Korn;
Montana The Magazine of Western History has an article by BYU History Librarian Albert Winkler, The Case for a Custer Battalion Survivor, Private Gustave Korn's story.
First one needs to look past general statements about the battle in the article. Many are not attributed, and go against many well accepted accounts. For example, Winkler put Keogh's battalion, C, I, and L, down in Medicine Tail Coulee while vitually all scholars have Keogh's battalion on Luce Ridge and Nye-Cartwright Hill with Yate's battalion, down in the coulee at the beginning of the Custer phase of the battle.
Focus instead on the real treasure trove here, which are the second-hand accounts of what happened to Gustave Korn, who was a farrier with Company I, and was Company Commander Myles Keogh's orderly for the day. Korn turned up on Reno Hill, coming up from the river wet and riding a mortally wounded horse. Not much was officially recorded of what Korn had to say. But several comrades over the years have reported second hand what Korn told them.
A German immigrant, as were many in Custer's regiment that day, Korn had an excellent reputation, both on official records, and by the accounts of his friends in the 7th Cavalry.
What is of note is that the second hand stories from friends are mostly alike (some may have heard a more embellished story third or fourth hand). Korn had a difficult mount, known to be skittish. The horse had relaxed its belly after a full morning and afternoon of travel from the Rosebud-Little Big Horn Divide to the bluffs east of the Indian village. The cinch was loose and Korn got permission from Capt. Keogh to stop and adjust it. He did so. The horse became unmanageable when he remounted and tried to catch up with Company I. It ran past I company, and charged downhill to Medicine Tail Coulee and then across the Little Big Horn, through the village and back through the riparian woods south of the village and across the Little Big Horn again, from where Korn ascended the hill to link up with the remainder of the 7th Cavalry Regiment.
The account repeated by many of Korn's buddies in the 7th is consistent with the horse spooking while the Keogh Battalion, companies I, C and L, were on Luce Ridge or Nye-Cartwright Hill. Korn said the panicked horse took him downhill. Yate's battalion, Companies E and F, minus B which was detailed to the rear with the pack train, was below them in Medicine Tail Coulee, where they had stopped perhaps 100 yards short of the River, by most Indian accounts. Only one Indian account claims the troops attempted to cross the river.
There are Indian accounts of a runaway horse carrying a rider across the river and into the village. Most stories assumed the rider met his fate in the village. But though he drew fire, and the horse had several wounds, Korn managed to run through it and make his way to the Reno-Benteen position. Unfortunately, the story doesn't offer too much insight on what Custer was doing at the time Korn left. Korn's account was that the first firing by the Custer battalion happened about the same time as his mishap with the horse, probably enhancing the fear of the panicked animal. So Korn did not get the chance to see much.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 3, 2018 19:56:55 GMT
''Blimmin eck'' The guy is a celeb!
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