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Post by Beth on May 18, 2018 19:07:08 GMT
Where would the Butler marker be in comparison to where DeRudio was thought to be?
Beth
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Post by yanmacca on May 18, 2018 19:44:33 GMT
It a tough one Beth, but you will find that these two locations are not far wrong. There was two positions for the Butler Marker so I just gave you the hill where the both locations are found. DeRudio is a long shot, but as far as I know this is the timber position.
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Post by yanmacca on May 18, 2018 19:50:58 GMT
Why has it become an article of faith that Companies E and F operated together, or in conjunction with each other? Everyone just assumes they did, with no evidence at all to back it up. Not saying they didn't. I am just wondering why. Same could be said to a slightly lesser extent about C, I, and L, again with no evidence. You are correct, there is no evidence. But Steve has his thoughts on middle coulee, which a place I never reckoned with. I asked him if he thought that the whole column or just part of it, used this coulee. The evidence for a body of cavalry to be traveling along N/C ridge and even Luce, is strong, so I will say that a column did use this route. The only way we can get close to working this out is to act in the same way with what we did with the Wolftooth scenario and get our heads together. We did it successfully when got together on the all five north theory, so why not now.
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Post by quincannon on May 18, 2018 20:55:24 GMT
Who says we are not. Not I.
Unless, there is an unknown White survivor, who has the memory of an elephant, and the literary skills of a Hemingway, we do not know anything about what transpired from the time Custer turned on the bluffs until he and those with him met their demise. What we do know is what Indian witnesses do tell us, and through the painful process of ripping apart White translations of the message they send us, we can extract some idea of what took place but not the detail we must seek to understand what those unknowns are.
Among the unknowns are the order of march and route (routes) taken. So unless we have that unknown White survivor, or horse crap and shod hoof prints remain mummified we will never know these things, and while others may differ, in my view it is 1) A complete waste of time. and 2) Adds nothing of consequence to the story.
None of what you add after - I am correct - answers the original question though. Why is it an article of faith that E and F operated together. To me it is a innocent version of the Big Lie, something repeated often enough that it, in the minds of the selected audience, becomes truth. If fact it is, until proven, just another pound of horse puckey, thrown about by "scholars". Horse puckey is just horse puckey, not scholarship.
None of this is about you, I, or us. It is simply about not accepting the "innocent big lie" told by those over the last century and a half who are in no more position to know the truth of these affairs than we are. Company E and F operating together is nothing but the starting place in all of these assumptions of fact. Truth is that Company E and Company F, in the only positions we can document them in are a good seven to eight hundred meters apart. Company F then is closer to Company I, than E. Why don't we have those two and not E and F together. Don't know.
Steve rebuts Mac by saying one of those routes down the three coulees is easier than the other two, therefore more likely. Steve determined the ease of travel by being there far more than once, and in riding each of them at least once if not multiple time. So what Steve did is make an evaluation. Custer was there once and did not have the time to make that evaluation before he gave his orders to possibly take one of them.
In addition you have Steve's experience contradicting what Mac told us about Deep Coulee and how Wolf Tooth placed Custer there. Deep Coulee runs both east and west from the southern end of Battle Ridge, and I believe that Wolf Tooth had Custer in the eastern segment of that coulee.
Steve tells us that had Custer chosen to cross Sharpshooter Ridge then onto L-N-C that he would be more exposed. More exposed from what? That place is masked from view from the village by both bluffs and a couple of hundred feet of elevation, and as for ease, Custer was only there once and had to make up his mind what to do. and it is not as if he had a map or previous reconnaissance to help him with his decision.
The moral of the story is two fold. 1) What seems like the best way in 2018, might not have presented itself as best in 1876. and 2) Sometimes the hard road is the road best taken.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 18, 2018 23:08:08 GMT
What we should have is the order of march, what company was Thompson with, did he have to wend his way through following companies after he dropped out. I think not, he was with C, they were the tail end. Did any one ever ask Kanipe (also with C) or Martini HQ. I have little doubt that C was 5th, L was 4th, I was 3rd. Not sure of E&F, but with Yates being so personally close with GAC I would guess his company followed HQ.
Here is my best shot heading north: HQ F E I L C The reverse heading south for a retreat.
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2018 0:14:49 GMT
And the operative words are "your best shot". Your best shot, my best shot, Little Johnny Gross' best shot is not the same as cold hard fact, and that is my point exactly. Someone's best shot has been taken over the years as fact, to the point where only heretics like you and I Tom, dispute it. It's like knowing the species of wood that the true cross was made from, or the exact day and hour God created the heavens and earth. There are all too many idiots like Bishop Usher, and all too few heretics and whores.
If Custer was traveling in a tactical formation, Thompson would have to wend his way through nothing at all, but that does not equate to Company C being last in line. If Company C was last why would someone travel to the end of the column to find a messenger? Also ask yourself why that bozo who saw Company E on the bluffs did not see the other companies?
Why does your best shot have the headquarters first in line in the column? Is that because some idiot once said Custer always led from the front? Anyone with a brain would conclude that the headquarters should have at least a company in front of them, simply for tactical purposes. Leading from the front, something that is to be applauded in a commander, has been translated, by idiots to mean first in line, and that is not what it means at all. Custer and nearly every other commander from Hannibal Barca onward has from time to time gone in front of his troops for some specific purpose, but that does not meet the definition of leading from the front either. It means being so positioned to see and have your finger on the pulse of the action. That cannot be done from pool side of the Holiday Inn in Sheridan, although such things have been tried too.
WE all need to open eyes, ears, and minds, and accept absolutely nothing as fact until it can be proven so with one hundred percent certitude.
Personally I think at some time after Custer went to the bluffs that Company E was the rear guard. I don't think it stayed that way for the whole trip, and that's my best shot.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 19, 2018 10:37:11 GMT
Did Godfrey make mention of C at or leaving the Divide?
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on May 19, 2018 11:41:20 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on May 19, 2018 13:17:43 GMT
Yes it does Steve, but would the column stay in one long line or try to emulate Reno. I would guess that all five in a line would resemble one long snake and have no punching power in the lead, Reno had two companies in columns of fours in which to punch a hole, one long column in twos leaves you with nothing. That's why I suggested that the column split into parts rather than a whole with each part keeping close but maybe on different ridge lines. They all would be heading the same direction and that would be Calhoun hill. Here is column in twos moving over the battle site, you can see how strung out it is.
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2018 15:39:57 GMT
Tom: I see no mention made of Company C in the Godfrey article while the regiment was on or near the divide, save the listing of Tom Custer and Company C being part of the Custer battalion. In all three cases, each battalion is listed in the order of seniority for the commanders of those units in each battalion.
The McGuire map is nothing more than speculation based on the general view of how the battle unfolded in the early years following the battle. The routes are completely speculative, and have no real value if the mission is to determine the route Custer took. McGuire did not know any more about how the battle unfolded than anyone else who was not there. Most maps providing theory fall into the same category. Worthless.
Reno crossed the Little Big Horn in battalion column, companies in column. That is exactly what you see in the picture above battalion column, companies in column. It was only after less than a mile that he DEPLOYED (Why is that word so seemingly hard to use and moreover understand) into a V formation with companies in column. Once a significant threat presented itself he further DEPLOYED into line of battle with first two companies in line, shortly thereafter followed by the third (the reserve company). It is from that formation he dismounted and skirmished with the Indians.
Columns are columns. Lines are lines. Columns are for traveling. Lines are for fighting. Columns are the easiest formation to control. Lines are the hardest formations to control. Columns place insignificant to no firepower forward. Lines place maximum firepower forward. Words and how words are used have meaning. If you want to use words to describe military activities, use the same words the military uses to describe these things. If you say, well I stand in line at the grocery store checkout, using the proper word in a military sense, would have you standing in column at the grocery store check out.
It is a well documented fact that from the Divide until he sent Reno off, Custer moved with a regiment in battalion line, battalions in column. When viewed from above that formation would be two parallel columns with a creek between them. That formation is adopted to provide security primarily to the flanks. If we know this, why would we ever think that Custer as he grew nearer to contact would not also provide security for his five company battalion. There are several ways to do that but the two most common are to remain in the two parallel column configuration, or adopt the diamond. Of the two the diamond provides the best security. In either instance though what you would see in the aftermath of passing are a number of trails ranging from two to five each separated by some distance. The nature of the terrain dictates the formation used though, and it seems to be that for the first part of that journey the most probable formation is the two parallel lines, while the second part, from L-N-C onward, it literally cries out for a diamond.
I suppose it is human nature for us human to believe that once we see a snapshot of something that snapshot view is what existed before and after. Reality is that any view we take is constantly changing. Sometimes that change is so insignificant it is undetectable. At other times major changes occur within an instant after that mind picture becomes firmly implanted. Why then is it so hard to envision change during the course of any one event. An example with that order of march discussion of yesterday. I believe it is fully possible that Custer's advance guard company may have changed a couple of times during his march to the north, which would in turn cause the positions of the other four companies to change as well. Custer was in a hurry. When you are in a hurry and make slight contact (read Wolf Tooth) you have your advanced guard, deploy, clean up, and catch up. You don't stand there picking your nose until all is done. You move on, this time with another company taking the lead. All this stuff is common sense folks. No mystery, no magic.
Unless I miss my guess that picture dates from 1926 and that is Colonel Fitzhugh Lee riding the white horse you can see in the picture on the extreme right riding behind the lead element. The units involved are Headquarters Detachment along with Troops C, E, and F and they have just traveled by rail from Fort Bliss for the 50th Anniversary.
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Post by yanmacca on May 19, 2018 18:49:01 GMT
Wait a minute, I showed that picture to allow everyone to see how long a column of twos would look in the field and how vulnerable it looked, plus imagine trying to get orders from the leading company to the rear unit. The picture did not mean that every thing I see in picture form I believe. Also, wouldn't columns of twos be a regular formation when traveling through rough country? After leaving Custer, Reno’s companies were in columns of fours until they reached ford A, they then changed to columns of twos to cross and once the battalion was on the other side they changed back to columns of twos. He then changed his march to two companies [both in columns of fours] and a reserve [another company also in columns of fours] and advanced. Once Reno saw activity to his front, he then brought up his reserve company and the line resembled G-A-M. When they dismounted, this configuration changed, to M-A-G.
The terrain would dictate how these columns moved, I would guess that during his advance Custer would either have to split or ride in columns of twos. Reno had the luxury of choosing his order of advance as the valley gave him enough space to do so.
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2018 20:18:54 GMT
I am perfectly aware of why you posted the picture and your motive as stated was quite clear, that being to show how long and how vulnerable it was. What in the totality of what I posted make you think otherwise. Nor did I say you believed it. Stop being so goddamned touchy about everything I post that you think is directly aimed at you. It is not. What I said about that picture is quite simple. It is a battalion column, companies in column.
A column of twos indicate that the ground is more complicated than that conducive to a column of fours. The same could be said of a single file being used when the ground is more complicated than that conducive to a column of twos. The ground in the picture is not complicated at all, and all that picture indicates is that by 1926 when the picture was taken that a column of fours used for tactical purposes had fallen out of favor.
What you said in your third paragraph is exactly the same as I said. Either you did not read what I said or you did not understand it. You still, in either eventuality missed the salient points. Shortly after crossing the river, Reno traveled in a V formation, companies in column, and upon imminent contact deployed into battalion line, companies in line.
It is obvious to me that despite my many years of trying to explain formations, lines, and columns to you. that you still do not fully grasp the concepts.
This is a line - It is used primarily as an assault formation. It is the most difficult of all formations to control. Its advantage is that it places maximum firepower forward. It is the least secure of any formation, being subject to enfilading fire, as well as flanking and enveloping maneuver.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
This is a column - It is a formation used primarily for travel and not when contact is eminent. It is the easiest formation to control.
X X X X X
This is a regimental or battalion line of units in column - This is also a traveling formation, one that is more secure than the single column. It gets it name from the fact that the leading elements of both columns are parallel to each other forming a line across the front. A Box, V, or Diamond tactical formation is a variation of this one.
X**X X**X X**X X**X X**X
This is a regimental or battalion column units in line - This formation was once in favor for it's deployed depth. It fell out of favor with the advent of the machine gun, and the development of infiltration tactics to offset the firepower of the machine gun. The last place I can recall it was used was by the Marines in the Bois de Belleau
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
This is a regimental or battalion line, units in line - This formation represents a fully deployed brigade, regiment, or battalion with all of their subordinate units fully deployed in assault formation
XXXXXX***XXXXXX***XXXXXX
These are not my rules Ian. I only report on what the rules are.
May I suggest that you obtain a book strictly devoted to small unit tactics, that give real life examples of how they are implemented. Two such that come to mind are "Infantry in Battle" by Marshall, and "On Infantry" by English. There are others, but what you must stay away from in this leaning process are field manuals which only give you the rules with no examples of how the rules are applied. Eventually you will require both, but the historical example of the rules being applied give you a much clearer picture.
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2018 21:48:23 GMT
Here is column in twos moving over the battle site, you can see how strung out it is. They remind me of ducks in a shooting gallery.
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Post by quincannon on May 20, 2018 0:07:20 GMT
If you happen to be laying on one of those flanks Beth, that is exactly what it should remind you of.
That is why smart commanders never use it in close proximity to the enemy. They choose instead an open formation that provides security all around. Combat is an exercise that expects threat from any of the 360 degrees that surround you.
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Post by yanmacca on May 20, 2018 12:10:17 GMT
Chuck, I am not being touchy, its just that some times you come across as very condescending.
I know all about military formations. But not everyone does and that is why I try to do things with maps. People have actually thanked me for explaining things to them in this form, so when I do post stuff in that way, its not for me or you or even Colt, its for people who are just getting to grips with formations and how they are used.
I see on one of the threads that has been updated, that you have written the lines; Ian: One of the reasons that everything seems to be quiet is that you are not here.
Now I enjoy writing on this board, I know that sometimes I drag things out and have difficulty in explaining myself as I am not a natural writer, your replies do seem to make me look rather silly and a few poster have noticed this up too.
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