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Post by yanmacca on May 15, 2018 14:50:06 GMT
Hi, now Mac has been pondering over the figures on the bluffs and how it could have been Custer giving out signals, so lets all pitch in and help him out. I myself have a few issues with the notion that it was Custer actually waving at Reno's men, why? well the person who claimed to have see three figures on the bluffs was DeRudio. Three Crow scouts in the shape of Goes Ahead, Whiteman Runs Him & Hairy Moccasin apparently watch the fighting in the valley from Weir peak and were joined by Bouyer at some point and I think that these are the three figures [minus Bouyer of course] who DeRudio saw. I think that some times stories do tend to get mixed up, did DeRudio claim that Custer was waving his hat at this point? I know that Private Petring saw Custer waving his hat on the bluffs, but this was when his company was still moving up the valley, this could be what the Indian scouts and survivors refer to as the place near sharpshooter ridge when Custer gave his column a gee up, they had just caught their first glimpse of the Indian village so the excitement was high. So any hat waving could have come from this incident, anyway I have threw together a map below with the Timber where DeRudio saw the figures, point 3411 and Weir point, also we have two trails, one for the Crows and another for the column, if Custer diverted the column down cedar coulee then that would be the last time he would see the valley. Timings are really hard to pin down, but I would guess that the column would be on its way down cedar when DeRudio saw the figures and if you ask me what my money would be on, it would be the Crows on Weir point and not Custer, so its over to you guys to give your verdicts and reasons.
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Post by Beth on May 15, 2018 21:26:37 GMT
Do you guys want me to 'bring over' the conversation on this subject from the Indian Approach thread?
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Post by yanmacca on May 16, 2018 14:12:58 GMT
Hi Beth thanks for the offer, but it is only worth it if this thread generates any interest. I only started it because I thought it would allow for Macs thread to carry on with its current theme. The topic was too valid to ruin what his thread contained, so I thought that if we keep it to its own thread, then we could all pitch in and brainstorm it. But if it withers on the vine, then it won't be worth moving any posts and I will delete it. Ian.
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mac
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Post by mac on May 17, 2018 1:00:16 GMT
Don't delete it Ian; it is an interesting topic and who knows when we will want to come back to it.
I am not sure of the timing but it probably is mentioned in the Fred Wagner time lines. (?)
Cheers
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Post by Beth on May 17, 2018 1:33:25 GMT
Wagner*: "As we have seen already, there were a number of sightings of Custer’s command after Reno crossed the Little Big Horn. What is notable, is no one but DeRudio saw Custer standing stationary on the bluffs watching the battle below— 1: 53 p.m. This is important, for it marks DeRudio as being the sole witness of Custer spending some time viewing the fight in the valley, assessing the situation— and by logical extension— planning his next move. Another witness— Private Henry Petring of G Company— claimed to have seen Custer on the bluffs waving his hat, though Petring did not say Custer was stopped when he waved and Petring claimed Reno’s command was still heading down the valley, not yet stopped and deployed.
(A close look at the timing would argue against Custer stopping en route; Timeline I.) Other men, as well, said Custer waved his hat, 1 as did DeRudio, but this was at least several minutes after Reno halted, probably around 1: 44 p.m. as Custer’s command headed toward the top of Cedar Coulee."
Wagner lists Reno's halt at 1:35 if that is any help.
It's kind of hard to pick the info out of the Kindle version because it is not as searchable as one would hope and unfortunately my LBH books are already packed and in storage.
Timetable lists the valley fight from dismount to retreat (Not my word) The Valley Fight: Dismount to Retreat; 1: 35 p.m.– 2: 21 p.m.
*Wagner III, Frederic C.. The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn: A Military and Timing Analysis of the Battle (Kindle Location 3362). McFarland. Kindle Edition.
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Post by yanmacca on May 17, 2018 10:43:46 GMT
Hi you two, the interest has started so we shall leave it running.
I am sure that Fred gets the time in the valley to 48 minutes, which is in the bracket I mentioned on the other thread as between 45 and 50 minutes.
This is why Fred should have stayed active on this board, as we know he didn't want to debate the "all five north" theory with us anymore, but he still would be a great help with other topics like this one.
We are not just a one trick pony and I am sure that Fred would have been really helpful in a lot of other areas in this battle, not just what happened after 3411, as his knowledge all the other aspects of this battle is invaluable to any LBH board.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 17, 2018 12:28:41 GMT
Ian
If you use Custer's route as going down middle coulée it becomes a short jaunt to the edge of the bluffs. Custer never went down the bottom of Cedar Coulée. He could travel on top of SSR or the left side of Cedar staying high and just below the military crest. He could cross over after moving down Cedar to just past Weir Pt. If that is route it is mere seconds to ride on top of Weir from crossing point to the edge overlooking the valley.
There is also a travel corridor off the bluffs in close proximity. You can see it when driving on the paved road. It now has a two track road from the bluffs to the east side of the river. You can see Thompson's crossing if you start down the two track toward the river. It is on preservation property. The two track has no evidence of heavy equipment use and appears to be following a natural travel corridor most likely for maintaining fences and the livestock.
Look at the sat-map and you will see how easy it would be to move down Middle Coulée. It is visibly the smoothest route on the picture Ian posted.
I reserve the right to change my opinion based upon the findings in the Donahue's new book. I was aware of the route for several years and have ridden it twice. If Donahue changes his opinion I will look at his supporting distance. I think all three routes are ridable but moving down Middle Coulée is my preference. Timing wise it is not any different than moving down Cedar. I believe SSR would take longer and you would be exposed since the travel corridor is on top.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on May 17, 2018 13:52:02 GMT
Steve, you know where middle coulee is situated, a few more will also know, but for those who don't, here is a sat-pic I did last July showing the coulees in order. BTW: I think that Weir Point is just around the place where the yellow line touches the blue line.
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Post by Beth on May 17, 2018 18:13:21 GMT
Steve, when is Donahue's book supposed to ship?
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mac
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Post by mac on May 17, 2018 22:06:22 GMT
Steve
Wolftooth has Custer coming down Deep Coulee to get to Battle Ridge. How does that affect your choices?
Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 18, 2018 9:55:34 GMT
Ian
I think those lines need to shift a bit. The red line is on top of SSR. Cedar Coulée is just to the right of the junction of the blue and yellow lines. Middle Coulée is just to left of the yellow line.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 18, 2018 9:56:24 GMT
Steve, when is Donahue's book supposed to ship? Some have been sent to Donahue for signature.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 18, 2018 10:29:18 GMT
Steve Wolftooth has Custer coming down Deep Coulee to get to Battle Ridge. How does that affect your choices? Cheers Mac
Not at all. We would have to know the path Custer took after crossing MTC but in order for Custer to be seen on the bluffs he would have to be close as in the three choices of Middle, Cedar, and SSR. There is only one place on SSR that you can see into the valley and any further east would be to far.
There is to much information close to Reno Hill for Custer's path to have him any further east before crossing MTC. The starting point for all three routes are almost the same location just past Reno Hill. SSR is one side of Cedar Coulée. Starting down Cedar Coulée on the left side is consistent with both Middle and Cedar routes. The Middle route separates just past WP and turns into Middle Coulée right where the loaf joins WP. That semi circle curve in road is in Middle Coulée. If you move off the face of Weir toward MTC you are in Middle Coulée. Cedar Coulée is adjacent to the loaf with Cedar on one side and Middle on the other side.
Looking at the map and heading north on the road the next turn on the road is a hard right and down Western Coulée.
If you ride with the Real Birds the route they take is between the river and the paved road up to the Park Boundary for the Reno/Benteen site. Then you ride back down Cedar Coulée and cross MTC. As you get closer to the river you see the Butler marker.
Mac as far as heading down Deep Coulée that triangle of land between MTC and Deep comes to a point near the Big Village and widens as it moves east. That land mass is a good reason not to think Keogh was waiting for Benteen. There are several battle sites there. Blummer Nye Cartwright , Luce all have several Indian and Cavalry artifact finds. If Benteen had to cross the land mass between MTC and Deep and drop into Deep then climb out and move to the CA he would have shot Keogh when he got there for not supporting him from MTC.
I think we need to know more about where WT had moved to after he was notified to return. Custer's route in between MTC and Deep Coulée is not studied much and especially by those that think Keogh was waiting for Benteen in my opinion.
The most obvious place to climb out of MTC leads right to an Indian site across a ravine and a cavalry artifact site.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on May 18, 2018 15:32:20 GMT
Hi Steve, I don't have much time so I will keep it brief. Would the whole column have used middle coulee or just maybe E and F? The other three may have traveled along Nye-Cartwright. Remember this map you posted a while back? This looks like a good route to reach Calhoun hill. Maybe L, I and C used this route and met E and F along the way as they could have headed towards Luce and joined the column.
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Post by quincannon on May 18, 2018 18:56:34 GMT
Why has it become an article of faith that Companies E and F operated together, or in conjunction with each other? Everyone just assumes they did, with no evidence at all to back it up. Not saying they didn't. I am just wondering why. Same could be said to a slightly lesser extent about C, I, and L, again with no evidence.
It is a small point, but I believe it stems from a very narrowly focused perspective. We don't really know the order of march. We don't really know if some combination of those five companies took different routes. So why are any of us convinced that any combination of companies operated side by side, upside down, or inside out, together.
If someone has better information on the matter from a source that rode with Custer and those five companies, from the time then went to the bluffs, until the curtain rang down, please inform me.
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