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Post by quincannon on Jul 19, 2023 18:31:04 GMT
Well, that's good that you have Hansen on order. Hansen's real value is having all that testimony and the pertinent documents under one cover. Hansen is in the basement at present and I am too damned lazy to go hunt for it, but what I am about to say you can check with Hansen when it arrives.
The LINE IN THE SAND. Probably more myth than fact. Rose is the genesis of the story. Supposedly he slipped over the wall and escaped 24 to 48 hours prior to the final assault. The story goes that the leave or stay option was presented to the garrison and he was the only one that chose the former. Later it is related that he was found half starved by a Texian family, nursed back to health and spent the rest of his days in Louisiana. I cannot remember the name of the family but it was the son of that family that brought the Rose/Line story to life many years later. Some believed him, others not so much. When pinned down he said that the story was as related by his father, but he had added something without which the story would be incomplete. That "something" could only be the line.
Now, all that said, Travis had a flair for the dramatic, and such a thing I would not put past him. The only other person that mentions anything resembling the line story is Mrs. Dickenson and all she says is that the garrison was called together shortly before the final assault. It's the west Mr. E. print the legend.
Almonte was quite fluent in English, but what little remains of his diary was written originally in Spanish. He also says he had his wallet stolen during the time of the assault. I will wait to see what was misinterpreted according to Edmondson. That is interesting.
What does Edmondson say about the Garza Sugar Mill raid? There was a guy, now deceased, that concocted a Black Helicopters over Montana conspiracy surrounding that event, calling it the Second Reinforcement Theory. He was convinced that the raid was to aid a second break in by reinforcements, second in that the Gonzalez Mounted Ranging Company made the first sometime between the 2nd and 3rd of March (most probably). He points to the great discrepancy in the Texian body count by those San Antonio citizens you mentioned as his proof.
What is known about numbers is that there were still about 30 hospitalized within the walls. There were probably a few Mexican POW's too. All of them were a result of the December fighting. We also know that Travis himself said he had a hundred and fifty men, prior to the arrival of the Gonzalez Company. What we do not know is if Travis was only counting effectives and not counting those in hospital. Assuming he was counting only effectives (150), add the Gonzalez men (32) then figure 30 or so hospitalized and POW's (the Mexicans probably killed them before they could identify themselves) and you're about the 220 that the Alcalde said he burned. The second reinforcement theory is pure bunk.
PS: Zuber was the families name
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Post by Elwood on Jul 20, 2023 4:56:00 GMT
Edmondson does not believe in the arrival of the group of 60 from Gonzalez. There was a sorty/sally towards the sugar mill but he believes it was most likely a diversion masking the exit of a courier out of the Alamo. Bedsides, if that group of 60 arrived, wouldn’t their families/friends speak of it later?
The misquote involving Almonte had to do with a comment he wrote re: the Texans artillery. I’ll try and relocate it.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 20, 2023 14:25:59 GMT
The misquote wasn't Almonte's fault but whoever translated his Spanish language diary. On the second day, Almonte wrote that the Texans kept up a brisk artillery fire until the Texan's 18 pounder and another cannon had been "dismounted". (page 327) The Texan's had to conserve powder and ammo and most likely simply pulled the cannons down their ramps. But it might lead the reader to believe the Mexicans had damaged the cannons. It does not amount to much, the translation, but it brings home the concerns and potential errors in translation whether its Souix or Spanish. I would think most of the Mexican officers writings weren't translated until well into the 1900's.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2023 14:35:12 GMT
Masking the exit of a courier is one possibility, but the sugar mill is more than a mile from the north wall, and that seems a pretty long distance for a masking only operation to me. The sugar mill is located somewhere near or on the campus of Saint Mary's university. Never been there myself but I had a service battery commander/S4 who graduated from Saint Mary's and he said he knew exactly where the sugar mill once stood. I always considered that it might have been some sort of reconnaissance that was trying to determine the strength of the obvious Mexican build up in that area. Remember the Texians were very concerned about the strength of that north wall, that they themselves had blown a hole in the previous December causing Cos to surrender. I do not discount however that it could have been both, a reconnaissance and a diversion.
Now I really want to read what Edmonson has to say about Almonte and the Texian artillery. The number of guns the Texians had were not mounted very well, and while there may have been a few trained gunners in the garrison I think the overall performance of the Texian artillery was poor, and for a number of reasons, mainly powder supply, which most likely prevented any effective counter-battery fire, and the skill set of the gunners. The most effective weapons the Texians had were their rifles.
I find getting deep into the Alamo story far more interesting than LBH. Both deal with a lot of unknowns, but considering that the Texians were far fewer, and raw troops, but not raw people, they did very well indeed, much better than a so called regiment of cavalry. Travis was not any great shakes as a commander. He was a frigging lawyer, not a cavalryman. A commission does not make a soldier. He made a huge number of mistakes. For instance, what idiot puts his men inside to defend a broken down church when it was proven that the place could not be defended three months before? There was a shortage of horses that Travis had to deal with, but that is no excuse for not conducting mounted patrols to the south and west to detect Santa Anna's approach. They were very much surprised on 23 February, and I subscribe to what Freddie the Big Guy said about being surprised. What Travis lacked in tactical knowledge though was more than made up for in pure leadership skills. He held those people together, when at any time before the 3rd of March any or all of them could have decided to vote with their feet and just walk away. Santa Anna only had about a thousand troops with him initially, and the supposed ring around the Alamo was nothing more than a few easily bypassed outposts and a series of very predictable roving patrols. None of them were much of a bother to anyone wanting to get in or out. That all changed around 3 March.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 20, 2023 15:41:26 GMT
A reconn and a diversion, agreed, makes the most sense.
The Texans had few experienced artillerymen but had a couple of capable officers. As you said, severe powder shortages. Edmondson writes that when the final assault came, the Texans did a good deal of damage with their cannons. It simply became a numbers game quickly and they got to the point where there was no opportunity to reload.
Edmondson writes the seige day by day, a chapter to each. He writes what was going on in Goliad and Washington on the Brazos as well.
Totally agree with your thoughts on Travis. And re: the line in the sand, Edmonson writes that while certainly possible, it has to placed under the legends section pending hard evidence. But he also says it doesn't matter, line or no line Travis and everyone in the Alamo knew what fate they were facing. Doesn't remove one iota of the courage they showed. Let other historians debate it.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2023 16:03:35 GMT
Agree about historians debating the issue. They have to have something to do after all.
The Alamo, in my opinion, is the prime example of what Americans are made of. Most of those defenders had no real stake in Texas. Some did of course but they were in the minority. What they did have was a hold over from our own revolution, the idea that men were destined to be free. That is not a Texian idea, that is not even a totally American idea. We must never forget that there were a goodly number of native Mexicans in the garrison too. It is a human longing that is unstoppable by either the likes of a Santa Anna or a Donald Trump. Tyranny comes to you with a smile on its face, a slogan in its mouth, and a shive hidden in its hand.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2023 16:56:18 GMT
There is another Alamo book you would really like Mister E., "The Blood of Noble Men" by Alan Huffines with illustrations by Gary Zaboly. An unusual book in the it both goes day by a tactical day and it profusely illustrated by Zaboly including the finest and most accurate rendition of the Alamo itself. Pages 100 and 101 illustrates the sugar mill raid graphically.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 20, 2023 21:20:20 GMT
I will definitely look into that book. Thanks!
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Post by quincannon on Jul 21, 2023 3:26:34 GMT
Again look toward the Alamo gift shop. I picked my copy up at Mission San Jose at their gift shop. Also found there a fairly hard to find CD of Tish Hinojosa "Culture Swing" having two cuts I especially like San Antonio Romeo (nice of her to write a song about me) and Closer Still, probably the best thing she ever did.
Might interest you to know that Huffines commanded 1st Battalion, 141st Infantry TXARNG at the time he wrote the book. One company of that battalion, I think Company A, traces its history back to Seguin's Company that fought at the Alamo. The 141st Motto is "Remember The Alamo".
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Post by Elwood on Jul 21, 2023 16:03:30 GMT
Might interest you to know that Huffines commanded 1st Battalion, 141st Infantry TXARNG at the time he wrote the book. One company of that battalion, I think Company A, traces its history back to Seguin's Company that fought at the Alamo. The 141st Motto is "Remember The Alamo". Fascinating! Juan Seguin, noble Tejano. Treated badly after the war. Did a bit of reading about him years ago in college.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 21, 2023 16:54:46 GMT
One more story, of a personal, family note. Outside the Alamo, I believe it's called the Cenotaph, I call it an obelisk, is the monument to the defenders of the Alamo. A list of the names of the known men who were there are inscribed. In the early 70's, My Dad who was a dairy farmer in North Texas had a meeting there in San Antonio. While he was busy my granddad and I visited the Alamo, my first visit. I was reading the names on the monument and noticed "Samuel Holloway". Holloway is my last name. I talked to my Dad later, he was a genealogist, more or less. No internet obviously, did his work by phone and the US mail. Next to each name is the state (or country) where the man was from. Samuel was listed as being from Pennsylvania. So I asked him if we, us and Samuel, were related. He said first, he wasn't from Pennsylvania, he was from Tennessee. And we were from the same part/area of Tennessee. So, while he could not be certain, there was a decent chance that we were related, distantly at least. Years later, with help of the internet, I did a simple search on Samuel Holloway, Alamo. He had been born in Pennsylvania but was raised and grew up in Tennessee. And he was a member of the New Orleans Greys, the volunteer group that served in the Texas Revolution. Served in the seige of Bexar when it was taken from Cos. Remained in SA and was 28 when he died at the Alamo. Later some descendants were able to obtain tracts of land due to his documented service. The flag the Greys had at the Alamo was taken by Santa Anna and sent to Mexico where I believe it still hangs in a museum somewhere. Texas has attempted to get it returned over the years but no luck. As for Samuel, I have told a few people from time to time over the years that I had a distant relative who served at the Alamo. I have to stress that this has never been to "toot my own horn" but rather a way to remember Mr. Samuel, the men who were with him and their sacrifice. www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/holloway-samuel
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Post by quincannon on Jul 21, 2023 17:38:57 GMT
Lord has him as being from Pennsylvania, but Lord's listing is based upon birthplace, not last known residence. I would think proving some relationship, or the possibility thereof would rest on how long Samuel was in Tennessee, and who he might have come to Tennessee with. I think that is the key, who he came with. For that you do not have to search Texas records, you need to look at Tennessee. Any idea where in Tennessee he settled? That would narrow it down considerably. Chances are though he migrated further to Louisiana and that could possibly mean that he may have some connection with the waterways. This stuff fascinates me.
The flag. First off it was probably the only flag that flew over the Alamo. The 1824 Flag is another myth, a made up story by some good hearted soul who wished to give the Alamo story some overarching meaning, as if it needed it. My position on the flag probably won't win me any popularity contests in Texas, but I think the Mexicans should keep it as a prize of war, paid for with the blood of Jose Maria Torres. I think it would be quite different if it were a stolen artifact whose true ownership was known like some of the stolen Jewish art from World War II.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 21, 2023 21:57:53 GMT
Lord has him as being from Pennsylvania, but Lord's listing is based upon birthplace, not last known residence. I would think proving some relationship, or the possibility thereof would rest on how long Samuel was in Tennessee, and who he might have come to Tennessee with. I think that is the key, who he came with. For that you do not have to search Texas records, you need to look at Tennessee. Any idea where in Tennessee he settled? That would narrow it down considerably. Chances are though he migrated further to Louisiana and that could possibly mean that he may have some connection with the waterways. This stuff fascinates me. I have no idea what part of Tennessee he hails from. I was only 8 or 9 when I had that brief conversation with my Dad over him. I basically remember, somewhat humorously, his curt response that Samuel was from Tennessee not Pennsylvania. Of course he had been born in Penn. but my Dad, although a Texan, had a deep affection for Tennessee. Aside from a few simple internet searches, I haven't researched the issue. I'm thinking maybe read a bit about the New Orleans Greys. Know any literature? I could head over to Amazon and search. As for the flag of the Greys, yes, I lose no sleep over the issue. I only have read that some, maybe Texas legislators or some associated with The Alamo have inquired about the flag. It is still in Mexico City I believe.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 21, 2023 22:21:05 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Jul 21, 2023 23:47:36 GMT
No, I have nothing that would be of any deep value on the Greys beyond where they were recruited and how they got to Texas.
Looking at the timing of Gonzalez and the activation of the Greys, I think it a pretty good bet that Samuel was in New Orleans and not in Tennessee in at least the summer and early fall of 1835.
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