dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2018 17:21:05 GMT
182 years ago today after 13* day siege the Alamo fell to the Mexican Army of Santa Anna. Regards Dave *Error Correction
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2018 17:50:26 GMT
13 Days -- 23 February to 6 March. 1836 was Leap Year
Some folks do start the battle on 22 February, and it could have and probably should have started late that day, but Santa Anna's vanguard force was on the Medina, about six or seven miles away, and he stopped for the night, instead of being aggressive and moving on San Antonio and launching an evening attack which would have caught most of the defenders in San Antonio, (not in the Alamo) attending a fandango in honor of George Washington's birthday, and most of them were, shall we say were indisposed. Big things often happen because of small decisions
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 6, 2018 20:55:48 GMT
3 hours ago 13 Days -- 23 February to 6 March. 1836 was Leap Year
My god QC, there is no flies on you!
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 6, 2018 20:59:36 GMT
Did Santa Anna's vanguard have a full complement of cavalry with it? Did they have a regiment or two of lancers? If I was that close, I would have sent these to capture the town and any defenders who were in the cantina's.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 7, 2018 5:28:17 GMT
The vanguard force was a little over a thousand, of which about 350 were cavalry and a couple of guns.
Santa Anna wanted his cavalry to go in immediately and wrap the whole thing up with an evening attack. The cavalry reached the Medina around 5:00 in the afternoon. The Medina was up with high water from the rain, and the cavalry commander decided not to take the risk of crossing, in fear of the cavalry getting separated from the Infantry coming up behind, and them not being able to ford.
Keep in mind, the vanguard force did not know what they were up against. No prior reconnaissance.
Mexican cavalry fell into three general categories, lancers, dragoons, and Presidials (basically a frontier guard force) The Presidials were by far the best of the bunch.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 7, 2018 15:09:11 GMT
Chuck, I can only find data on two cavalry formations used at the Alamo;
Permanente Dolores Regiment Rio Grande Presidial Compañía [elements]
Apparently Mexican cavalry were feared by the American cavalry, mainly because of their lance. American cavalry found that with their swords, they were at a disadvantage against the Mexican lancers.
Mexican cavalry swept the field at the battles of Agua Dulce and Encinal del Perdido against the Texicans. Like all cavalry, they were vulnerable on the ground and got caught walking their horses to water at San Jacinto and fought on foot at Bexar.
Both the Mexican and American cavalry had side arms, both carried swords, pistols and carbines, the Mexicans had a six Barrelled carbine called the escopetas, which were like a blunderbuss.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 7, 2018 16:38:09 GMT
In addition there were small elements (a company or less) from Tampico, Coahuila, and Vera Cruz, probably 50 or less in total.
The Delores Permanente (Regular Army) were by far the largest group of cavalry, and if I recall they were less than 300 strong, so I am not at all sure if the entire regiment was present.
The Presidials were superb horsemen, and highly experienced soldiers. Much of our cowboy culture in the American southwest stems from these folks who guarded the Mexican frontier. Vaccaro, transformed somehow into our English word Buckaroo comes from this time.
Be careful when you mention Bexar without being specific as to when in Bexar. By the way it is pronounced "Bay R". There were two battles, one in December 1835 when the Texians kicked out Cos and his garrison, and then in February-March 1836 when the Mexicans came back. I don't know much about any Mexican cavalry being at Bexar in December, but it would sound logical that they fought dismounted, in that it was a fight in the completely built up area of the town itself, which was fairly good sized for the day. At the Alamo though in February-March, the cavalry was split guarding the two approach roads, one from Gonzalez and the other from Goliad, On the 6th of March all of the cavalry was massed in the Alameda (today's Commerce Street), and it was their tasking to take care of the breakout, which the Mexicans hoped would occur. It did and they did.
A couple of minor things that usually leave people wondering.
San Antonio the town, was officially known as San Antonio de Bexar. Most people including the residents referred to it simply as Bexar. Some time after the Texas Revolution references to Bexar were generally dropped and the town, now huge city, became San Antonio in popular usage. Bexar is the county that San Antonio is located in.
The Alamo, takes its name from the Cottonwood Tree. A couple of reasons I have heard regarding this were 1) The Flying Company of Alamo de Parris (Persidials) were once stationed there. 2) The Alamo derived its name from the tree lined Alameda very nearby. Don't know if either of these are correct, or there is some other reason, but what was the Mission San Antonio de Valero, started to be called the Alamo dating from the late 18th Century.
By 1835 the Alamo was used as almost what you would call an agricultural commune. The buildings that were still standing were used as residences for the people that tended the crops nearby. These buildings surrounded the Alamo Plaza. Right beside Alamo Plaza, between the south wall and the Alameda was another group of less sturdy shacks, called "jacales" which similarly lined Plaza de Valero. If you wish to look at this area today on a map or Google Earth it is the area directly in front of the Menger Hotel. The Mexicans under Cos made some effort to fortify the Alamo when they came there in 1835. They found, as did the Texians thereafter that you could not do a heck of a lot with the old wreck the Alamo had become.
During the Mexican War in 1845 the Alamo was taken over by the U S Army and used as a Quartermaster depot. During the ACW it was used by the Confederate Army for the same purpose. By this time all of the plaza walls were down, a few of the houses alongside the inside of the west wall remained, and the Alamo, after the ACW was again reclaimed by the U S Army who stayed there until Fort Sam Houston was established. At Fort Sam there is an area known as the Quartermaster Corral which is a walled in fortress like affair with a large tower in the center of the parade ground within the walls. As far as I know that was the first building at Fort Sam, and it replaced the Alamo. Today that building is the Headquarters of U S Army North/5th Army, the Army element of the joint U S Northern Command, whose headquarters is right down the road from me.
If you wish to see what the Alamo looked like in the 'quartermaster" period take a peek at the old Errol Flynn/Alexis Smith movie San Antonio. The outdoor set of that movie replicates Alamo Plaza as it was about 1866, and the fictional hotel in the movie sits right where the Menger is in reality. The only mistake the movie made, was giving the Alamo chapel no roof. In reality that chapel never had a roof, it was never completed at all, until the U S Army came in 1845-46 and finished the building, added a roof, and gave the chapel the distinct hump over the front entrance that makes the Alamo so recognizable today.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 7, 2018 20:51:52 GMT
I think it was the second one Chuck [April 1836], when they fought on foot during the siege, mainly as infantry in a defensive role. My god, there's Laurence Harvey Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on Mar 7, 2018 22:24:15 GMT
Ian: The siege and assault on San Antonio de Bexar was in December 1835
The siege and assault on the Alamo was from 23 February to 6 March 1836.
By the end of April 1836 the Texas Revolution had been won, Santa Anna was a prisoner, and the Mexicans sent back across the Rio Brave del Norte
Cavalry service during the siege of the Alamo, was exclusively outposting the two roads I mentioned, the road to Gonzalez and the River Roads which lead out past Mission Concepcion and finally on to Goliad. Once the assault was planned, all of the cavalry was consolidated on the east side of the river where you see the road cross the river on your map. That road is Commerce Street today. Then it was called the Alameda , and was lined on both sides of the road with Cottonwood trees. As the Texians tried to escape, the Mexican cavalry swept the east side of the Alamo and caught about 80 to 90 defenders outside the walls and creamed them from about an hour before dawn until dawn broke the morning of 6 March.
As to your picture. If the Texians had that many men to defend that little bit of wall shown in the picture, no Mexicans would have ever gotten inside. That's the problem with movies. They all show too many men per meter of wall. Just to give you an idea on a wall as long as that in the picture, the defenders might have had two or three in that size area. It was a matter of too much wall and too few to defend.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 8, 2018 10:33:27 GMT
Sorry Chuck, I must have deleted the right date and replaced it with the wrong one. Lawrence Harvey was a good actor, if you compare him to other actors like Wayne and Widmark and even James Stewart and Fonda, you see how versatile he was. Just look at the two clips I have posted below, both are from 1960/61 and shows him in two completely different rolls. linklink
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Post by quincannon on Mar 8, 2018 17:30:17 GMT
insert code here If that is Harvey portraying Travis, he is defending the wrong wall.
If that is Travis portraying Travis he is still defending the wrong wall.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 8, 2018 20:48:23 GMT
Probably right, but he was a fine actor.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Mar 8, 2018 22:22:56 GMT
Lawrence Harvey...great actor! San Antonio...Alamo......on my bucket list! Interesting discussion.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Mar 2, 2019 21:23:44 GMT
Just a little trivia.....Who has the largest private collection of Alamo memorabilia in the world. Hint..He is not a Texan, in fact he is not even an American.
Be Well Dan
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 2, 2019 22:26:22 GMT
Hi Dan, that would be the English drummer and vocalist Phil Collins. I think he has donated a lot of it back to the alamo museum.
I was a big fan of genesis even after they sold out in 1980.
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